Unions do slow things down. Tesla is better off working against a $4500 (10%) competitor subsidy than having a union on the cost of delay alone.
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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable
- Thread starter AudubonB
- Start date
No, we are not going to have another (political) discussion about unions being bad or not. Union posts need to be related to the rebate proposal, like the post above mine.
j6Lpi429@3j
Closed
Regarding federal incentives etc... two possibly underappreciated points:
1) This only applies to US customers, which are getting to be less and less of a major factor in Teslas sales. Other markets exist. Many posters here are from the US and may forget this applies to *one market* for *one product line* (cars).
2) Production capacity may be a bigger factor than price in many cases. Unless you are very price-constrained and absolutely need the tax credit to afford an EV at all, there is likely to be a situation where your EV options are: Buy a tesla now, or get in line for a slightly cheaper EV from ford, when they finally succeed in making enough batteries to fulfill demand.
A tax credit incentive is only good news for companies that have the battery capacity to actually sell decent numbers of cars. I'm only aware of one major EV producer in the US that has its own battery factory actually up and running and making safe (non-pouch) batteries.
1) This only applies to US customers, which are getting to be less and less of a major factor in Teslas sales. Other markets exist. Many posters here are from the US and may forget this applies to *one market* for *one product line* (cars).
2) Production capacity may be a bigger factor than price in many cases. Unless you are very price-constrained and absolutely need the tax credit to afford an EV at all, there is likely to be a situation where your EV options are: Buy a tesla now, or get in line for a slightly cheaper EV from ford, when they finally succeed in making enough batteries to fulfill demand.
A tax credit incentive is only good news for companies that have the battery capacity to actually sell decent numbers of cars. I'm only aware of one major EV producer in the US that has its own battery factory actually up and running and making safe (non-pouch) batteries.
I’m torn because we’ve been paying oil companies to poison our planet for as long as I’ve been a taxpayer…hopefully this is yet another nail in that coffin.
I’m certain that the pace/path that we’re on WRT climate change is at a critical tipping point. And at least ‘something’ is being done (attempted). Also I like the language about increase in household income to qualify and the tax credit of $2,500 on used EV’s.
Gary Black seems to think the Union language won’t pass the senate. I tend to agree with him.
Some of the replies to those Tweets are less encouraging. For example this one. Hopefully just a calibration issue here as I don't see how it would be "mind blowing" for some and completely out of whack for others.
Or unionize 100% of the employees and management all under ones group of Electric vehicle specialists and all vote themselves some extra options on shares per extra hours worked. There are probably creative ways to abuse an abusive law. just throwing a dumb idea because I know nothing about unions.
TheWalkingDad
Cybertruck 23' or bust.
The TLDR:
Key EV legislation proposal takeaways:
EV Credit: $7,500 (Phase out removed)
US Made (Battery?): $500
US Union made: $4,500
Vehicle Cap Price: $55,000 (Car)
Vehicle Cap Price: $64,000 (Vans)
Vehicle Cap Price: $69,000 (SUV)
Vehicle Cap Price : $74,000 (Truck)
Income cap of $400,000 individually required.
$7,500 credit only applies to US made cars starting 2027.
Any of these amendments only apply to cars delivered after 12/31/2021.
All of these could be debated and changed before final bill passage. Vote will be done on Tuesday.
Key EV legislation proposal takeaways:
EV Credit: $7,500 (Phase out removed)
US Made (Battery?): $500
US Union made: $4,500
Vehicle Cap Price: $55,000 (Car)
Vehicle Cap Price: $64,000 (Vans)
Vehicle Cap Price: $69,000 (SUV)
Vehicle Cap Price : $74,000 (Truck)
Income cap of $400,000 individually required.
$7,500 credit only applies to US made cars starting 2027.
Any of these amendments only apply to cars delivered after 12/31/2021.
All of these could be debated and changed before final bill passage. Vote will be done on Tuesday.
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Tes La Ferrari
Active Member
Is Rivian unionized ? Curious as their pickup and possible their SUV may be products that some might cross consider with the CT.
the CT is likely sold out for the foreseeable future, but curious about how the credits play out in this space.
the CT is likely sold out for the foreseeable future, but curious about how the credits play out in this space.
Two additional notes I would add:
- The $400k income limit is $600k head of household and $800k married, so even a bit higher than it looked at first. Well above the senate suggestion of $100k.
- There’s also a $2500 credit for used EV sales.
larmor
Active Member
What about retroactive increase in capital gains tax as part of the overall bill??!
That person had the same problem with the upgrade to V9. Likely either a camera or steering alignment issue. If the car's got an issue, the car's got an issue and software has to work around it when the calibrations are replaced.
Just like Windows 11 won't fix a flaky wifi chip.
Yeah, that makes sense. Clearly some issues with that particular vehicle. I know not everyone likes the hype of HyperChange, but Gali posted this video with his experiences of FSD Beta V10.
AquaY
Member
No. The UAW wants to of course and has stated they are " laying the groundwork" whatever that means but Rivian will resist it strongly.
This is not a " Unions are Bad or Good" discussion. It is simply from a business development position.
Unions drive up costs and of even greater concern increase work rules that limits flexibility in how a company can operate.
This can be especially difficult for a start up.
Again, this is NOT a discussion on fairness, rights or anything else.
Rivian is strongly backed by Amazon and Jeff Bezos and Amazon is not unionized.
They have been fighting against unionization for years.
Most " new " car manufacturers in the US are not unionized. In fact I believe only the legacy auto makers , the " Big three" are unionized. I could be wrong about that though.
Before everyone gets so riled up on the unfairness of a union specific enhancement to the rebate scheme, let’s do some quick math.
7500 rebate x 500,000 units = 3.75B.
Of. Pure. Bottom. Line. Profit.
That’s just Fremont. That’s ignoring the battery premium. Edit: That’s ignoring Austin.
Because this is a point of sale rebate the funds flow directly to the seller.
Remember that most OEMs are currently not producing at break even levels and that those levels are set for enormous disruption as they try to transition to EVs as their ICE margins get vaporized. This is a lifeline to legacy and it likely won’t be enough. That same lifeline is a huge boost to positive EPS for Tesla.
Union politics is just noise.
The more important point is whether or not the rebate applies to PHEV or just BEV. If PHEVs are included get angry about that. Write your parliamentarian about that.
7500 rebate x 500,000 units = 3.75B.
Of. Pure. Bottom. Line. Profit.
That’s just Fremont. That’s ignoring the battery premium. Edit: That’s ignoring Austin.
Because this is a point of sale rebate the funds flow directly to the seller.
Remember that most OEMs are currently not producing at break even levels and that those levels are set for enormous disruption as they try to transition to EVs as their ICE margins get vaporized. This is a lifeline to legacy and it likely won’t be enough. That same lifeline is a huge boost to positive EPS for Tesla.
Union politics is just noise.
The more important point is whether or not the rebate applies to PHEV or just BEV. If PHEVs are included get angry about that. Write your parliamentarian about that.
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
While following this discussion about the credits, I can't help but immediately consider current production numbers of all potential cars it may apply to.
Even if Tesla only qualifies for the less significant amount, their customers, overall, will be taking the lion's share of the dollars from credits for years to come.
Tally all of the other car makers combined, even after adding in extra credits for Union-made and their customers won't net as much of what gets paid out when compared to the total applied to Tesla purchases.
My gut tells me that the "Union" credit won't fly, and was only included as a mechanism to paint anyone who eventually shoots it down in a bad light. The Constitution has verbiage about how taxes are to be applied equally and giving a particular class an advantage for being club members is the sort of thing this was designed to prevent.
Edit: Looks like @st_lopes had a similar idea simultaneously.
Even if Tesla only qualifies for the less significant amount, their customers, overall, will be taking the lion's share of the dollars from credits for years to come.
Tally all of the other car makers combined, even after adding in extra credits for Union-made and their customers won't net as much of what gets paid out when compared to the total applied to Tesla purchases.
My gut tells me that the "Union" credit won't fly, and was only included as a mechanism to paint anyone who eventually shoots it down in a bad light. The Constitution has verbiage about how taxes are to be applied equally and giving a particular class an advantage for being club members is the sort of thing this was designed to prevent.
Edit: Looks like @st_lopes had a similar idea simultaneously.
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RobStark
Well-Known Member
It is a credit to the buyer.
That can be signed over to the seller. In the House version of the Bill.
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