Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
That's right, only with product innovation will Tesla continue to lead. But if you have been listening to Elon he has let us know the products are not the cars, they are the factories. Most people still don't get this. The factories are becoming ever more efficient and that means no one can match the prices Tesla is able to offer. This will guarantee that they can sell every car they can make because they will have more pricing power as far as the eye can see. A car is second only a house as the largest purchase most people make and people want value.

The factories are being optimized by people who love to figure out new, better ways to do things and work under a management that lets them try new things. Sure, GM could become desperate and tell their engineers to try to develop new ways of doing things that will save them money but they don't have a culture of real innovation. It's a place where bureaucracy has ruled for decades. Turning that around takes a herculean effort and many years. It requires new blood and if you are one of the most innovative graduates in your engineering school, who do you want to work for, the mythical Elon Musk or someone like Mary Barra who speaks highly of the corrupt UAW and pays lower wages and no stock options and might go out of business any day? So, the question is, how does an organization like that not only transform themself into something as lean and efficient as Teslaa but also, how does a troubled organization attract top management talent to make it happen? Because it's obvious Mary Barra doesn't have what it takes to make the big changes necessary. I don't see anyone that does.

The theory that other, hungrier, companies could catch up to Tesla in any reasonable timeframe because Tesla was basking in their successes doesn't hold water. Tesla is attracting the most talented people who have a dream of helping to change the world for the better and none of them have been fooled that the job is not long and hard or that it will be done when EV's reach 50% of sales. The job at hand and the threat of climate catastrophe will continue to drive them to make their products faster and for less money so they can spread to increasingly poorer countries. These are not the kind of people that bask in early success and say "Mission Accomplished". The culture is to invent and innovate better ways of doing things and the processes they develop will live on. It's a virtuous cycle. No one can catch up. Tesla has smartly positioned themselves at the leading edge of the age of technology and they know they are in control of their destiny, not VW, not Toyota, not Ford, not GM, they are irrelevant. Tesla's business model doesn't rely on cheap labor, it relies on innovation.

And to be clear, the big advantage is in making the products for less money. That is where Tesla focuses most of their innovation. Anyone can design a very nice car but how much does it cost them to build a million of them? Can they build a million of them at a price they can sell them for? If there's no profit in it, they don't want to do it.

Tesla doesn't have any real competition now and they don't need any in the future to keep them innovating. Their entire corporate culture demands that and corporate culture is a very powerful thing amongst those who are embedded in that world. Ford had great innovation in the 1910's and 1920's and then it slowly died out. They eventually had real competition but they didn't have a mission beyond making money and it took decades for the competition to become real. Tesla's secret weapon is that they have a mission more important than money. If you want to argue that their lead might dissipate in 20 years, in 2041, fine, I can't project that far ahead anyway and it's not really relevant now from an investment standpoint. But I think it's extremely short-sighted to think they need competition in the 2020's or even in the 2030's in order to effectively carry out their mission. Sure, bring on the competition, it's not even relevant and I don't think it will be relevant for a very long time. Because no one has explained how the laggards are going to suddenly become high efficiency manufacturing power-houses without the best talent, without a clear mission beyond saving the corporation from bankruptcy and beyond getting a promotion. The best they can do is try to emulate what Tesla was already working on 3-6 years previously. The only way they could become relevant competition is to match Tesla's corporate efficiency and their manufacturing efficiency. And no one has even presented a viable plan for achieving that. Tesla's competition will slowly die out with ICE vehicles.

Remember, it's all about the batteries and the 'competition' has battery plans that are woefully inadequate. Tesla's partners in carrying out the mission are other battery manufacturers and mining interests that supply raw materials for batteries and motors, not other auto manufacturers who want to continue producing ICE cars to keep shareholders happy and justify their corporate overhead. Success might eventually breed laziness but we are only into the second inning and there is still 6 1/2 innings to go. Team Tesla wants to humiliate all the other teams. And I'm only talking vehicles here. Considering that we are only in the first inning of the transition from the industrial age to the age of technology, my, oh, my!
This is a beautiful summary of Tesla's advantage. It has created self-reinforcing SYSTEMS. Terrifying to compete against at this point. I suspect it's biggest competitor in 20 years time will not be any of the auto incumbents, but rather another company that is designed from the ground up for the 21st century....

Many thanks, StealthP3D, for taking the time to give all of us a wonderful Wednesday morning gift.
 
Kinda nice
Screenshot_20211201-075534_Chrome.png
 
I think that the EV transition is going to be especially hard on Japan and Germany. First off, on both, ICE manufacturing and exports are a very large percentage of their GDP, and this has a large multiplier effect (ie factory workers spending on goods and services). This means there is a reflexive effect whereby the ability of the governments of these countries to bail out their automotive industries decreases greatly as the call for bailouts rises.

In Japan, most of their industry has been stupidly avoiding the EV transition as much as possible. Japan is already the most indebted country in the world, and they already run gigantic deficits every year. A large economic downturn combined with bailing out their auto industry could actually bankrupt their entire country and plunge the yen into collapse. At this point I think this scenario is more likely than not unfortunately as Japan inc (especially Toyota) tries to pretend EVs aren’t real.

In Germany, a few years ago when the European periphery was basically in an economic depression, Germany told them to get bent and forced austerity on them. When the shoe is on the other foot, and Germany is asking the rest of Europe to help bail out its ICE industry I suspect much of the rest of Europe is going to tell Germany the same thing Germany told them: austerity time.
 
I think that the EV transition is going to be especially hard on Japan and Germany. First off, on both, ICE manufacturing and exports are a very large percentage of their GDP, and this has a large multiplier effect (ie factory workers spending on goods and services). This means there is a reflexive effect whereby the ability of the governments of these countries to bail out their automotive industries decreases greatly as the call for bailouts rises.

In Japan, most of their industry has been stupidly avoiding the EV transition as much as possible. Japan is already the most indebted country in the world, and they already run gigantic deficits every year. A large economic downturn combined with bailing out their auto industry could actually bankrupt their entire country and plunge the yen into collapse. At this point I think this scenario is more likely than not unfortunately as Japan inc (especially Toyota) tries to pretend EVs aren’t real.

In Germany, a few years ago when the European periphery was basically in an economic depression, Germany told them to get bent and forced austerity on them. When the shoe is on the other foot, and Germany is asking the rest of Europe to help bail out its ICE industry I suspect much of the rest of Europe is going to tell Germany the same thing Germany told them: austerity time.
Germany lucked out that Tesla chose them for their European Gigafactory. Auto manufacturing and exports will continue, just with a different emblem on the hood.
 
All the folks with mountains bought them, to summon the servants from the foot of the mountain.
Unfortunately, I decided to wrap up presents for my contractor and his family and get the Christmas cards going (yes, the old fashion kind with hand-written greetings and well wishes; I know!!!) and missed the entire one hour, thirty-eight minute and twelve second sale that these suckers were available for. Now I will have to patiently wait for the Tesla kazoo. *sigh*
 
Last edited:
I think that the EV transition is going to be especially hard on Japan and Germany. First off, on both, ICE manufacturing and exports are a very large percentage of their GDP, and this has a large multiplier effect (ie factory workers spending on goods and services). This means there is a reflexive effect whereby the ability of the governments of these countries to bail out their automotive industries decreases greatly as the call for bailouts rises.

In Japan, most of their industry has been stupidly avoiding the EV transition as much as possible. Japan is already the most indebted country in the world, and they already run gigantic deficits every year. A large economic downturn combined with bailing out their auto industry could actually bankrupt their entire country and plunge the yen into collapse. At this point I think this scenario is more likely than not unfortunately as Japan inc (especially Toyota) tries to pretend EVs aren’t real.

In Germany, a few years ago when the European periphery was basically in an economic depression, Germany told them to get bent and forced austerity on them. When the shoe is on the other foot, and Germany is asking the rest of Europe to help bail out its ICE industry I suspect much of the rest of Europe is going to tell Germany the same thing Germany told them: austerity time.
Germany typically manufactures ~5 million cars/year, a number which has been in decline since ~2016. Directionally a very large fraction of that will be built by Tesla-Berlin in the coming years, enough to make up for the ICE-plants shuttering and maybe a few bankruptcies. My personal opinion is that BMW is the most exposed, and the more they release cringe-worthy videos like that last one, the less they will be missed (imho these days their cars seem to be aimed primarily at pimps & drug-dealers). If Ford-Germany were to go that would be the end for Ford-global but I tentatively speculate if Ford and VAG might merge. But anyway Germany as a country has done well to pull Tesla into Berlin.


Japan I fully agree will have a terrible time. But so too will France and UK, indeed it would not surprise me if the only competitively-scaled car plant left in the UK in 10-years might be Nissan Sunderland.
 
Germany lucked out that Tesla chose them for their European Gigafactory. Auto manufacturing and exports will continue, just with a different emblem on the hood.

Indeed, but it will still be very bad for them on the whole. Tesla building a factory there just keeps it from potentially being apocalyptic.

Do not underestimate how dependent the German economy is on ICE. It’s not just factory workers but white collar engineering and management jobs as well which are disproportionately based in Germany. High paying jobs that purchase a lot of goods and services and pay a lot of taxes.

The revenues of the German big three are equal to ~15% of German GDP. The revenues for the major 5 Japanese firms are like 12% of Japanese GDP. For comparison, the revenues of the US “big” three are equal to around 1.5% of US GDP. Just shows you how much national resources will be needed for bailouts.

Note: this is why I think Ford and GM will potentially and paradoxically weather the EV transition better than the German and Japanese brands: it will be much easier for the US to bail them out. Ironically, the survival of many old brands during the transition is going to hinge on bailouts, and many of them will be tiny shells of their former selves.
 
Looks like reality may finally be setting in (too little, too late?):

Tavares
Tavares is walking a tightrope, no doubt. The former FCA is not simple to rejuvenate after decades of decline. He did succeed in unexpected ways with the GM Europe mess, largely by replacing most of the ancient product line so they could meet emissions requirements. In comparison to those PSA has been easy. Perhaps the Chrysler part is easier because GM is so antediluvian. Zero doubt Tavares knows that hydrogen is a political sop for the oil and gas lobbies. This set of statements are essential to scare the various labor and industry stakeholders to be softened up.

He used the identical tactics when he first took over PSA and pretty much succeeded.

This time, though, they do not have a strong Chinese base that could help speed the transition. GM and the Germans do have that whether they can build on it or not.

Tesla is on the verge of needed some cooperation, maybe in ways we've not seen yet. Tesla can help without major harm, just as they're beginning to do with Superchargers. I wager we will be surprised by some as yet unspeculated Tesla assistance to some other OEMs. If nothing else that can somewhat ease political tension. Emissions credit pools have been beneficial to both sides. What's next?
 
Unfortunately, I decided to wrap up presents for my contractor and his family and get the Christmas cards going (yes, the old fashion kind with hand-written greetings and well wishes; I know!!!) and missed the entire one hour, thirty-eight minute and twelve second sale that these suckers were available for. Now I will have to patiently wait for the Tesla kazoo. *sigh*
I got one and plan on using it as my CHARGE bugle for my proxy army.
 
Looks like reality may finally be setting in (too little, too late?):

Thank you for sharing that @redan - the first shoe just dropped........that being a request from one of the Not So Big 3 for another handout bailout. We all knew this was coming. This administration has already set the tone with their efforts to misinform the public about Tesla - often denying the very existence of Tesla - in an effort to empower the next dumping of funds on those who intentionally moved too slowly to protect the Old Paradigm. IMO what we are witnessing now is a very orchestrated effort by business and politics to misinform and rewrite history to once again facilitate biblical-level tax-payer funding to these companies. And from that perspective the claim that 'They Did It' has already been proven - they already showed us they could waste more money than the entire GDP of large nations without bringing any fundamental changes to their business or their products for over a decade after receiving those funds. Tesla - the company that must not be named - is the Achilles heel of their story, for Tesla made good on their promises and made good on their loan payment - with interest. The amazing efforts of the company we have all invested every cent we could find in our collective couch in an effort to bring a more sustainable future is being erased at this moment in history at the highest levels. And the curtain just opened on Act 2 - with an angry expression from the ugliest of Cinderella's sisters on the Reuters article laying the foundation for requesting another new set of clothes for the next dance. Angry because his company has no one left to dance with, and angry because the President already promised Mary a new dress. And angry that Time Magazine already dubbed Mary the next queen - even if GM might have helped write that Act. If everyone acts angry enough while gloating about their achievements, it must be true?

TMC is such a tremendous resource for a more accurate view of automotive history. Glad @ZeApelido called Elon's attention to TMC recently. In August @BlackS shared a post I took a screen shot of that seems worth reposting at this time - just before the other ugly sisters ask for new dresses, and just before they are promised they will get some because they have worked so hard and come so far already (heck, Mary already did it). The truth is out there............Tesla is already the Cinderella story.

1638367714351.png
 
Germany typically manufactures ~5 million cars/year, a number which has been in decline since ~2016. Directionally a very large fraction of that will be built by Tesla-Berlin in the coming years, enough to make up for the ICE-plants shuttering and maybe a few bankruptcies. My personal opinion is that BMW is the most exposed, and the more they release cringe-worthy videos like that last one, the less they will be missed (imho these days their cars seem to be aimed primarily at pimps & drug-dealers). If Ford-Germany were to go that would be the end for Ford-global but I tentatively speculate if Ford and VAG might merge. But anyway Germany as a country has done well to pull Tesla into Berlin.


Japan I fully agree will have a terrible time. But so too will France and UK, indeed it would not surprise me if the only competitively-scaled car plant left in the UK in 10-years might be Nissan Sunderland.

It’s not just manufacturing. These companies have disproportionately large amounts of white collar workers in Germany as well that need to be factored in. This is probably actually an even bigger factor than the manufacturing…
 
Germany typically manufactures ~5 million cars/year, a number which has been in decline since ~2016. Directionally a very large fraction of that will be built by Tesla-Berlin in the coming years, enough to make up for the ICE-plants shuttering and maybe a few bankruptcies. My personal opinion is that BMW is the most exposed, and the more they release cringe-worthy videos like that last one, the less they will be missed (imho these days their cars seem to be aimed primarily at pimps & drug-dealers). If Ford-Germany were to go that would be the end for Ford-global but I tentatively speculate if Ford and VAG might merge. But anyway Germany as a country has done well to pull Tesla into Berlin.


Japan I fully agree will have a terrible time. But so too will France and UK, indeed it would not surprise me if the only competitively-scaled car plant left in the UK in 10-years might be Nissan Sunderland.
GM and Ford did that a couple of decades ago when they made their Brazilian operations into a JV. It did not work. All that resulted were Ford badged VW and VW badged Fords. Still, stranger things have happened.IVECO, Stellantis and Renault/Mitsubishi/Nissan are examples of the 'infinite improbability principle' in action. Of course no "Heart of Gold".
 
It’s not just manufacturing. These companies have disproportionately large amounts of white collar workers in Germany as well that need to be factored in. This is probably actually an even bigger factor than the manufacturing…
Not just Germany, much of legacy is finance/marketing etc, similar numbers in many countries, China & USA probably huge numbers of employees doing (to my mind) pretty pointless activities

1638370550855.png
 
GM and Ford did that a couple of decades ago when they made their Brazilian operations into a JV. It did not work. All that resulted were Ford badged VW and VW badged Fords. Still, stranger things have happened.IVECO, Stellantis and Renault/Mitsubishi/Nissan are examples of the 'infinite improbability principle' in action. Of course no "Heart of Gold".
I agree many JVs do not work.
I think Ford and VW cultures are more closely aligned. Indeed I wondered if they might merge last time, but instead Ford managed to pull through (good for them).
This time both know their platforms are burning and that business-as-usual won't work, and they made all the easy moves last time.
So maybe, just maybe, they might do this.
 
Note: this is why I think Ford and GM will potentially and paradoxically weather the EV transition better than the German and Japanese brands: it will be much easier for the US to bail them out. Ironically, the survival of many old brands during the transition is going to hinge on bailouts, and many of them will be tiny shells of their former selves.

What I don't yet understand is how a bailout could actually help.

Let's say ICE demand goes off a cliff in the next 5-10 years and GM applies for a bailout. The government gives them a bunch of cash, say, $50B. Maybe even $100B. Then what? They can keep the lights on a bit longer but they're still saddled with debts, unions, undesirable ICE models, unprofitable EV models, second-rate technology, limited battery supply... if they can't actually shrink their workforce and produce better EVs in a cheaper and more automated way, then what future do they actually have? There can be EV subsidies but they can't make Tesla's costs go up; given Tesla's mission you have to think Tesla will just go on and undercut the OEMs with better products cheaper and swamp the market with great, lower-cost EVs.

In the Tesla Daily interview with Alex Potter, Alex emphasized that a battery raw material supply crunch is coming. If there's not enough Lithium or Nickel or whatever available, even if an OEM builds a battery factory, what's going to feed into it? Alex noted that since Tesla never questioned their own future scale, they would have locked in supply contracts 5 years ago, while OEMs are just thinking about that now as they press-release their battery factory plans and maybe it occurs to them that the battery manufacturer/JV partner isn't just going to be able to materialize ore out of thin air.

Alex and Rob had apparently just come out of a "Battery Summit" event where the battery industry players repeated that a new mine takes 7-10 years to get running, so for all those without contracts in place, well, the phrase they actually used was "SOL".

Meanwhile, iron is cheap and plentiful, but nobody except Tesla has demonstrated the ability to get decent range out of an LFP pack. With $50B could GM engineer their way to a more efficient vehicle? Well, if they could, why wouldn't we have seen even basic steps in that direction by now? Every EV would benefit from the same range out of a smaller pack, but I don't see GM innovating on efficiency much, and Lucid has gotten a bit too pricey to acquire...