Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Me thinks that with this month's free FSD lollapalooza, Tesla will gather 1000's x more FSD data. Easily. Eventually, FSD gets to V13.
Ford licenses that V13 which will be the end of the rest that don't have FSD.

You either license FSD from TESLA or die. Hardware becomes less relevant.
I suspect curating the required "gold standard" video clips in sufficient quantity and quality to address each of the currently identified performance gaps is the bottleneck to progress today since compute is no longer the long pole. They have data from millions of vehicles if they can actually find it out there among the fleet. I do wonder if they could just manually create their own virtual clips for training material since I've seen remarkable photo realistic quality simulation videos that Tesla can create....
 
  • Like
Reactions: GOVA
I suspect curating the required "gold standard" video clips in sufficient quantity and quality to address each of the currently identified performance gaps is the bottleneck to progress today since compute is no longer the long pole. They have data from millions of vehicles if they can actually find it out there among the fleet. I do wonder if they could just manually create their own virtual clips for training material since I've seen remarkable photo realistic quality simulation videos that Tesla can create....
We also know that Tesla is consistently sending out employees in cars to get data. They did this on Chucks UPL for months and it's gotten better, but still not perfect. It's not as easy as they have millions of cars and they just let video flow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MC3OZ
What does Starship have to do with $TSLA though?

That's fair. To me, Earth is zero-sum because, as Elon has routinely said, it's a N=1 for where humans are.

If Space is available, TAM is not just Earth-based. That means vehicles, robotics, and AI (all things Tesla does and manufactures) is available on Planet Earth and in Space + other planetary bodies (e.g. Mars). I wouldn't be surprised if the first contingent of Starships, if successful and scalable, ends up with Tesla Bots to help build a self-sustaining city there before humans land on Mars.
 
Re: the vision guy moving companies...
I dont think this is that big a deal. Kaparthy left, and arguably its after that when things started accelerating. Very hard to know if a change in personnel is good or bad. Also I get the impression that computer vision: working out what you can see, is pretty much a solved problem compared to 'how do we react to what we see', which seems to be where FSD V12 beats earlier versions so much?

Although people are understandably nervous about conflicts of interest, I think we gain MASSIVELY more from elon being in direct, daily contact with companies as diverse as boring/neuralink/tesla/spacex/x/x.ai
Even without cross-recruiting, I bet elon has learned hard lessons from spacex that apply to Tesla engineering, from X that apply to Tesla marketing, from neuralink that will apply to the bot and so on...

I once had someone (very successful CEO) at a conference utter a single sentence to me, in response to me casually asking how his company was doing. He was a very respected source. That once sentence probably earned me millions of dollars.

With hindsight, we take everything as being obvious, but imagine how much these sentences are worth if you could go back in time and whisper them to car company CEOS ahead of time:
"building your own charging network will be worth it"
"vision-only will work if you have enough data"
"try casting the body instead of welding it"
 

Oddly enough I do find her prediction possible for 2029, but it's dependent on some very key positive factors executing perfectly. My amateur Excel model predicts (and I use that word loosely!) the following:

1) If Tesla is still just cars + energy, meaning no L5 FSD and no Optimus, then I think TSLA will be something like $700 in 2029 with 8 million cars/yr produced and Megapack sales a bit less than auto revenues.

2) If FSD is solved by then and Robotaxis are in production and driving on roads, I think it would still be early days for the RT fleet but the writing would be on the wall. In this case I think something more like $1200 per share is very possible (and that is admittedly a conservative calculation, in reality I think it would be higher than that, RT's have gigantic profit potential).

3) If the above are true AND Optimus is in production and selling by 2029, lets say volume bot production starts in 2028, well then my itty bitty Excel model predicts $2200/share by 2029.

Now, I will of course be wrong on all three of these predictions because my model is amateurish and certainly incorrect. BUT, it is showing some very real possibilities, and honestly my model is tuned conservatively and its STILL predicting share prices like those, even with meager PE ratios around 40.

Cathy is often overly optimistic, but with everything happening at Tesla right now, and particularly with FSD in such an awesome state and the bot improving so quickly, YEAH, I truly think she isn't too crazy this time.
 
I really don't understand going to a forum full of people that are invested in a company, or set of companies, doing the coolest stuff on Earth (right now and, in the future, off Earth), outside curing diseases, and ragging on those companies and people.
You must be new :) There have been several people that start out as bulls only to flip the switch and turn into "Elon haters". Possible explanations include:

1. Sold their $TSLA shares too early
2. Burned on $TSLA options
3. Don't agree with Elon's political views
4. All Of the Above
 
Hadn't seen this posted yet-


This kinda thing is common among legacy auto who all have their own big financing arms but first time I can recall Tesla offering similar
Which truly begs the question, with around $30 BILLION in cash sitting around, why does Tesla STILL not have a finance arm? Forcing customers to get their own financing, and paying interest to them instead of Tesla, is a huge missed opportunity on Tesla's part.

If I had to guess, Elon wants one, but he wants it to be under the "X.com" umbrella unfortunately . . . .
 
I doubt there are much in the way of statistics because the oldest modern Tesla (Model S) is only 12 years old. Tesla no doubt has statistics on infant mortality, but I'd guess so few batteries have failed from old age that the statistics so far are not significant. I recall that originally Tesla said they engineered the battery to last double the warranty (120,000 miles was the first mileage based warranty for the large batteries I can recall. The very first batteries were unlimited).
Great!

If Tesla has all the real world data on battery longevity, then why won't they give a four-year/80k mile warranty on the replacement battery packs?!?

Instead, they charge two arms and a leg for a replacement and the customer gets to HOPE they won't be back for a new one a lousy TWO YEARS later?

Tesla Customer Service is pathetic, and I think it's a major reason that older Teslas are darn near worthless: far too much risk for a prospective buyer....
 
Is hardware redundancy needed for robotaxies? The government doesn't seem to care.

I mean legally- not at all.

But I'd be exceedingly surprised if tesla would field a driverless vehicle that if one of the nodes in the driving computer goes down the other one entirely loses all networking.... which is the current situation on HW3 cars if node A fails.



Which truly begs the question, with around $30 BILLION in cash sitting around, why does Tesla STILL not have a finance arm? Forcing customers to get their own financing, and paying interest to them instead of Tesla, is a huge missed opportunity on Tesla's part.


GM and Fords financial arms have north of 110 billion in assets each-- I suspect opening a significant financing arm would use more of Teslas spare cash than they're comfortable with, esp. with potentially multiple new factories being announced in the next year or two.
 
Which truly begs the question, with around $30 BILLION in cash sitting around, why does Tesla STILL not have a finance arm? Forcing customers to get their own financing, and paying interest to them instead of Tesla, is a huge missed opportunity on Tesla's part.

If I had to guess, Elon wants one, but he wants it to be under the "X.com" umbrella unfortunately . . . .
I expect @unk45 will have some useful insight about your question
 
  • Like
Reactions: JusRelax
The biggest mistake made is after the Y not bringing new models to market as quickly as possible.
You can’t take a big chunk of the 80 million vehicles sold every year with two models.
A more “conventional” looking truck would have got similar reservations as the cybertruck and could have been available a year or two before the cybertruck.
In parallel a smaller cheaper vehicle should have been designed and be available now.
(Elon didn’t even want to make it because he went all in on robotaxi and franz had to convince him to use the same platform)

The next mistake was not continuing to increase production of existing battery’s whilst the 4680s are being developed.

I watched battery day and didn’t understand half the technical content but I thought what’s the plan in case this doesn’t work or takes longer to mass produce?
Turns out they didn’t have a plan for this scenario.

As a result we now have at least a year, if not three years of flat or small growth in overall sales.

The existing lineups sales are not helped by many factors some of which are under the companies control.

You mention advertising, many people have been pleading for this for a long time, the leader made this decision late. Targeted advertising should have started before as soon as management knew inventories are increasing.

Another factor is doing silly things to existing models.
Like getting rid of the rear view camera and not having an adequate replacement in place.
Or getting rid of stalks. Before they did this nobody thought I won’t buy a Tesla if it has stalks. After this was done for x number people this is a deal breaker.
All these sorts of decisions result in less sales and right now every sale is needed.

The final area which is a major weakness is repairs and not increasing the number of service centres to take into account the increase in the overall vehicles and the number of vehicles out of warranty that need timely repairs.
Right now these can be expensive and time consuming.
Millions of people outside the US drive vehicles that are more than 10 years old. If Tesla’s have a reputation for expensive, time consuming repairs ( never mind the possibility of buying a car where the battery fails the day after) then second hand values will be much lower resulting in more people being unwilling to buy newer cars, dealers not buying used Tesla’s etc.
This will have a knock on effect on new sales if as well as the normal depreciation another large hit occurs to one outside warranty.

When Hertz made the announcement I remembered the story of a European taxi company getting rid of it’s Tesla’s because Tesla’s service was rubbish and I wondered if it had improved and could handle the numbers hertz would buy.

Turns out it hadn’t.

The result is no more large fleet buys, a fire sale which is great for people who get a bargain but not for Tesla which loses sales overall.

The bigger problem I see that Elon is good at long shots and start ups but when a company is a mixture of multiple start ups and a mature company, the aspects of mature company management isn’t as good.

Like he found top notch engineers for spacex and Franz for Tesla he needs to find people who can run the bread and butter of a company selling millions of vehicles a year and in time having tens of millions of vehicles on the road.

He also has a habit of unrealistic timetables and announcing products before they are ready. I notice the solar roof and the roadster aren’t on the list.

As for everything else mentioned that’s great but the problem is it’s not available right now in sufficient quantities to increase sales and profits.

Just because someone has done great in the past does not mean they will continue to do well in the future or they they are infallible which is why the board needs some truly independent people who can give Elon advice, like spacex has Gwynne Shotwell.
Executive Summary:

“Conventional” can be low innovation, hence same as everyone else, hence low margins..

Tesla has made some mistakes the past Model X and Production Hell usually they learn from their mistakes.

Model X and Cybertruck are unique, hard to copy vehicles, which are versatile and contribute to brand image. Unique and hard to copy means it is very unlikely that a competitor will have a similar product. An intending customer can only buy it from Tesla. More choice is always a good thing.

More inventory doesn't necessarily mean (permanent) lower demand, we will find out Q2, or perhaps get some clues in the earnings call.

Low share price doesn't necessarily mean Tesla is making mistakes, different investors have different expectations and different timelines. I've never seen anything that leads me to believe Wall Street has a good understanding of what Tesla is trying to do, and why they are doing particular things.

Quarterly earnings reports are the tip of the iceberg, sometimes the tip can be ugly but the iceberg is in fine shape, Times when the iceberg were not in good shape are Model X ramp and Production Hell.

Detail:

It may have been possible to make a “conventional” looking Cybertruck with a lot of innovation under the covers, but Tesla didn't choose that route. Change the specs, you change the timeline, features and performance and cost of manufacture.

if we consider how “conventional” looking EV pickups are going, Ford F150 Lightning customers are happy with their truck, ,but Ford is loosing money on every truck, they are wound back production plans and are laying off 2/3 of the workforce.

Similarly Rivian make great products but as far as we know are not making money on those products. Rivian is at Gen1 and is trying to get to Gen2, that means facing their own version of "Production Hell". Companies like Rivian can poach staff from Tesla with experience in "Production Hell" and can poach experienced staff from legacy auto, especially staff that have been laid off, or have seen a pivot away from EVs at their workplace.

But the bottom line is Rivian Gen2 will be competing with well established BYD Gen2 and Tesla Gen3, I am confident Tesla Gen3 can compete with BYD Gen2.

The key component of the Gen3 process is the "unboxed' method of production and it is at least a 50/50 bet that some part of that idea came from attempting to build the Cybertruck. Lot of aspects of the Cybertruck are probably at least a partial rehearsal for Gen3. especially 48V parts. This shows the real value of doing new and difficult things, staff are forced to innovate, and often the lessons learned can be applied to other products.

But it isn't all risk , initially building Model Y and Berlin and Austin was a very safe way to start those factories, and that is part of what has been happening the last few years.

Why is Cybertruck so versatile?
  • It is a truck that drives like a car in terms of ride comfort, steering and handling.
  • it is good on road and off road.
  • It is the Tesla that is best able to handle hauling and towing because it was designed for those purposes.
Currently we are at Gen1 Cybertruck with Gen2 4680s many more Gens to come for both.

My rating of the ramps:-
  • Model X - 2/10
  • Model 3 Production Hell - 1/10
  • 4680 - 7/10
  • Cybertruck - 10/10
Generally Tesla is improving, but improvement is never perfection.

Most legacy auto are still at Gen1, or more accurately have realised that they were losing money on Gen1 cars, and have mostly pivoted to hybrids and/or delayed their EV plans. When you are tailing badly in a race, having a rest in the middle usually does not increase your chances of catching up.
 
Last edited:
I expect @unk45 will have some useful insight about your question
When GE Credit originated in 1932 it was because nobody would finance refrigerators a sped electric washing machines when iceboxes and hand washing were perfectly good.
When General Motors Acceptance Corp was founded in 1919 they needed to do something to compete with Ford and their cheaper, better cars with weekly and monthly payment options.
Captives, whoever has them, are structured to have better credit than does the parent and are the ones that get subvention, credit backstops and enough funding to ensure high credit ratings. They seem a source of easy money. They are not. Commercial banks, credit unions and others often take the highest quality customers. Cative can make money, but often just are managed by preferred terms from the auto arm.

As they say TANSTAAFL.

One day Tesla will enter loans as well as the present leases. I suspect that might happen around the new small Tesla arrives. They will then have both the scale and customer categories that make that practical. They have scale to do that in China now but there are other issues about that.

Anyway, insurance is much more important and needs another few years to reach profitable maturity. The consumer lending market is exceedingly tricky too. Just ask Goldman Sachs, who thought they knew how to do that easy business. Further, if consumer lending fir cars is so great why did GMAC founder and get sold to become ALLY Financial?

I really like that business, but the perils are greater than they appear to be.
 
Last edited:
Cathy is often overly optimistic -
Is she now? Concerning Tesla?

Factually, she was pessimistic on Tesla last time she presented her Tesla/TSLA model.

Not only did the stock hit her SP target, it went over by 50%ish and ahead of her timeline. @Zero CO2 literally just dropped a link from her original ‘not-optimistic’ tour.