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Tesla Wall Connector - Type B / Type A-EV RCD

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This is as I suspected. I have read the extremely interesting and erudite comments on the subject of DC fault protection and have come to the conclusion that if DC fault protection is required because of the potential hazard it should be incorporated either in the vehicle (why not?)

It can't be incorporated within the vehicle, as the most probable cause of the DC leakage in the first place is the link between EVSE and car: a short between the pilot signal and neutral in the connecting cable is likely to cause DC to flow (as the EVSE applies DC between the pilot and earth).

It could be covered in the EVSE, and that is probably the reason why the regulations don't call for DC protection on plain sockets provided for EV charging (only Type-A required) - though I agree with you that this logic is flawed given that most portable EVSE don't have such protection.

Possibly there is an intention to cover this in the product standards (IEC 61851 etc), though they don't at the moment.
 
It can't be incorporated within the vehicle, as the most probable cause of the DC leakage in the first place is the link between EVSE and car: a short between the pilot signal and neutral in the connecting cable is likely to cause DC to flow (as the EVSE applies DC between the pilot and earth).

This surely is the thread of doom I really struggled to get my head around this. However, I believe I have had a breakthrough.

My conclusion is that the regular RCDs we use aren't fit for purpose as they assume the world is AC, there are no particular issue with EVs that make them particularly dangerous.

I half expect type B will be demanded in every installation regardless of EVs or not.

The battery & charger are in the car, the power from the EVSE is AC, rectification happens in the car. There might be a tiny amount of DC in the electronics in the EVSE, but the elephant in the room is 70+kWh of 400V+ DC in the car. If we are worried about DC in the EVSE then we should worry about laptop PSUs, phone chargers etc. the issue of a tiny DC leak saturating an AC RCD would surely confirm that globally all AC RCDs aren't fit for purpose and should be replaced with something new :eek:

I have lost 32 minutes of my life to this and won't get it back. The last few minutes are a preview of a clip that hasn't been uploaded


The most staggering thing is this appears to be the last video sparkyninja made on that channel - I sincerely hope he wasn't injured due to a lack of RCD or similar.

Followed by another slating of the "normal" RCDs "The Hazards of AC RCDs" Hilariously it appears the IET have only just noticed we are using electronics in our homes.

23 minutes I won't get back from here:


As far as I am concerned the regulators are late to the party and it looks like EVs are being unfairly framed for an issue that is due to the regulators failing to keep pace with the world.
 
There might be a tiny amount of DC in the electronics in the EVSE, but the elephant in the room is 70+kWh of 400V+ DC in the car.

But what sort of plausible fault can cause that DC in the car battery to actually result in a DC current flowing in L or N of the supply to the charger? It's isolated from the chassis (with isolation monitoring), and the charger is also isolated.

Conversely, the DC in the pilot signal in the cable will definitely cause DC to flow if there is a short between pilot and N in the cable, which is a very plausible type of fault, just requiring a worn cable.

Note also that it is tiny amounts of DC we are looking for here - anything that results in large currents is going to cause a big bang and blow fuses etc. It's the relatively tiny leakage that can go unnoticed, saturating the RCD and causing it to not trip when a more serious conventional fault comes along.

Both those videos have rather dodgy use of physics in their descriptions, but correctly point out that pure DC desensitises conventional RCDs.
The sparkyninja one concludes that you should be using Type A rather than Type AC to solve this problem - when in fact Type A also suffer from the problem, and indeed it's manufacturers's data for a Type A device that he uses in his description! The other video makes no suggestion as to what you should do about it, but lumps together railway systems (thousands of DC amps in a circuit with one side earthed), solar PV systems and common household equipment with electronic converters - without discussing what kind of fault might actually result in DC flowing in the L or N of the supply system.

Neither video makes the point about the main difference between Type AC and Type A - that Type A responds to pulsed DC as well as pure DC. Many products rectify the mains voltage to drive a switching power supply or a motor drive, but a short circuit to earth from the 'DC' point after the rectifier on the primary side will result in pulsed DC not pure DC because the rectified DC is not referenced to earth. A short from the secondary side of such a device won't cause any leakage at all since there isn't a current path to either L or N.

To cover all possible faults in the new world of electronic appliances requires Type B, but they are expensive. Most likely faults in these devices with electronic PSU or motor drive will in fact trip a Type A, and Type A costs very little more to make than a type AC. Therefore there is a strong argument for using Type A in most general purpose circuits since they are quite likely to contain electronic loads. Type B would be better, but they are sufficiently expensive that they aren't currently justified except in cases of high risk (as was the case 30 years ago when RCDs of any type were expensive and were only used in cases of high risk, while they are now so cheap as to use them everywhere).

Whether or not EV charging actually has a significantly higher risk of pure DC faults than any other appliance is questionable; the regulation writers evidently think that it does. It is hard to see that the charger itself within the EV has materially different risk compared to other things with similar circuitry like washing machines or air conditioners. The charging cable pilot signal is a clear potential source of DC faults, but a maximum of 12mA; although this is greater than the 6mA that Type-A RCDs are required to tolerate while remaining within spec, you might guess that many devices in practice will actually be OK at 12mA (note that the demonstration in the 2nd video above used 250mA). I haven't seen detailed risk analysis to justify this point.
 
Too late to edit the above, but one critical typo:

Neither video makes the point about the main difference between Type AC and Type A - that Type A responds to pulsed DC as well as pure DC. Many products rectify the mains voltage to drive a switching power supply or a motor drive, but a short circuit to earth from the 'DC' point after the rectifier on the primary side will result in pulsed DC not pure DC because the rectified DC is not referenced to earth. A short from the secondary side of such a device won't cause any leakage at all since there isn't a current path to either L or N.

should be:

Neither video makes the point about the main difference between Type AC and Type A - that Type A responds to pulsed DC as well as AC. Many products rectify the mains voltage to drive a switching power supply or a motor drive, but a short circuit to earth from the 'DC' point after the rectifier on the primary side will result in pulsed DC not pure DC because the rectified DC is not referenced to earth. A short from the secondary side of such a device won't cause any leakage at all since there isn't a current path to either L or N.

Type AC - responds to AC only, no guaranteed response to anything else (but in practice will tolerate at least a little DC as it would be impossible to make them with no margin at all).
Type A - responds to AC and pulsed DC, guaranteed to still work if up to 6mA pure DC present, might work with more.
Type B - responds to AC, and DC whether pulsed or smooth.
 
It can't be incorporated within the vehicle, as the most probable cause of the DC leakage in the first place is the link between EVSE and car: a short between the pilot signal and neutral in the connecting cable is likely to cause DC to flow (as the EVSE applies DC between the pilot and earth).

I don't understand this I'm afraid. Why can't the vehicle detect the presence of DC on the neutral? Is this because under a fault condition the neutral may no longer be present at the vehicle? Sorry to go on about this but you've got me intrigued now!
 
I don't understand this I'm afraid. Why can't the vehicle detect the presence of DC on the neutral? Is this because under a fault condition the neutral may no longer be present at the vehicle? Sorry to go on about this but you've got me intrigued now!

The fault I am suggesting is inside the cable between the car and the EVSE, so the car can't see it. The fault current isn't flowing through the car.
 
The fault I am suggesting is inside the cable between the car and the EVSE, so the car can't see it. The fault current isn't flowing through the car.
This surely implies the fault could develop/exist whist the EVSE is not connected to the car? If this is the case it would seem to me that precautions against this should always be incorporated within the EVSE and Tessla should modify their unit. I have already suggested that it seems grossly inconsistent not to incorporate protection within the UMC which is liable to be plugged into a random outlet with random RCD protection having been carted around in the boot of the car along with heaven knows what. Mandating the use of Type B RCD's for fixed installations seems a bit like closing the stable door after etc etc.
 
Becoming a more pressing requirement, but still none the wiser as seems to be lots of contradictory advice.

Can anyone who has had a Tesla wall connector installed by a Tesla recommended installer (confirmed by Tesla to be required for 4 year warranty) since Jan 2019, please post a photo of the RCD device for the EV charging circuit.

I've been told by a Tesla recommended installer that a Type A RCD with 6mA DC sensing meets requirements.

I get it that a Type B RCD also covers smooth DC over and above the pulsing DC of Type A, but the info that I can find does not exclude Type A RCD's from current regs if they meet some obscure Type A-EV specification.

Seems maybe to fulfil this (Tesla wall connector, et al. is Mode 3) but do not fully understand the impact of the assumption.:
http://www.eponthenet.net/article/54621/RCD-requirements-of-EV-charging-equipment.aspx said:
The Government specification issued by the OLEV for e-car charging specifies Type A for Mode 3 single phase charge points. This must be on the assumption that there will be no harmonic distortion of the AC waveform and that any pulsating DC/smooth DC content, will not exceed the limits given in the existing product standards quoted in the code of practice - BSEN61008 and BSEN61009.

Also, elsewhere - not a useful website to quote as it requires registration but I linked it anyway (its easier to copy the whole page into word etc)
https://www.voltimum.co.uk/articles/evse-rcd-protection-and-18th-edition said:
Tesla specify the use of a Type A RCCB to meet IEC61851-1 2017

Although the Tesla site is less specific and the Tesla recommended electrician questioned Tesla's use of the term Type A-EV and said that this is what the 6mA DC protection on the Type A RCD is.
The Tesla Wall Connector does not measure DC current leaking, so an RCD Type B or a specific Type A-EV needs to be installed

So how do I know that a Type A RCD being proposed by installer meets IEC61851-1 2017? Or is it down to the 6mA specification and how it responds under final site test?

It just seems that there is industry wide confusion over this. So glad its not just me. Short of definitive statement that type A is no longer valid (contradicts the above), or that a unicorn Type A-EV is different to Type-A with 6mA DC, I will trust the installer on this.
 
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So how do I know that a Type A RCD being proposed by installer meets IEC61851-1 2017? Or is it down to the 6mA specification and how it responds under final site test?

This is definitely a matter of specification of the equipment, not a matter of ad-hoc testing.

I suspect some of your sources are out-of-date.

The requirements of UK wiring regulations (BS7671) are quite clear - you need either:
  • Type B (30mA) RCD; or
  • Type A (30mA) RCD plus 6mA DC detection. The 6mA DC detection may be provided by the chargepoint itself or externally.
The "TypeA EV" is I believe a proprietary nomenclature invented by Doepke to describe a device that they supply containing the TypeA RCD and the 6mA DC detection all in one unit. This is ideal for protecting a Tesla chargepoint.

TypeB RCDs are widely available but very expensive.

The use of a TypeA plus an external box for the DC detection function is theoretically possible; however, all the ones I have seen are intended to integrate with the chargepoint itself (Rolec for example now have a separate unit inside their chargepoints alongside the TypeA RCBO, but I don't believe this can be used on its own).

I am not convinced that IEC61851-1:2017 is relevant here. This is the standard that specifies the interface between car and chargepoint. I don't have the 2017 edition, but the 2011 edition requires an RCD of at least TypeA performance (to IEC60364-4-41) "shall be provided as a part of the EV conductive supply equipment for earthed systems". Tesla are evidently saying that their internal RCD function in the chargepoint doesn't meet IEC60364-4-41 so you need to provide one in the supply wiring so that the whole assembly then meets IEC61851-1.

So for compliance with IEC61851-1 you need at least a TypeA, but that doesn't let you off any other requirements needing something better. It is possible that the 2017 edition has further tightened the requirement there.

BSEN61008 and BSEN61009 are generic standards for RCDs and RCBOs respectively - anything you fit is likely to comply with one of the categories defined by these, so that doesn't get you much further.
 
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So, a Type A RCD that offers 6mA DC protection, as suggested by my installer would seem to fit the bill?

Type A (30mA) RCD plus 6mA DC detection. The 6mA DC detection may be provided by the chargepoint itself or externally.

So for compliance with IEC61851-1 you need at least a TypeA, but that doesn't let you off any other requirements needing something better. It is possible that the 2017 edition has further tightened the requirement there.

It sounds like the installers suggested Type A RCD with 6mA DC protection is what some (including Tesla) call Type A-EV?

The "TypeA EV" is I believe a proprietary nomenclature invented by Doepke to describe a device that they supply containing the TypeA RCD and the 6mA DC detection all in one unit. This is ideal for protecting a Tesla chargepoint.

Do we know that the Type A RCD pictures early on by @Yev000 is not a Type A with 6mA DC protection? How would we know what DC protection/detection it has, other than the AC and 'spiky' DC graphics - I didn't notice any reference to 6mA DC specifically. Looks like it may be this https://www.garo.ie/GAR1/GAR1-SHOP2/docs/Components/RCBO/RCBO 2 mod 6kA Spec.pdf (image looks generic 6A version not 32A) but again, no reference to 6mA DC.

Trying to pin down the specifics here.
 
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My brain hurts... :confused:

For the short version, read only the 3rd paragraph of my post above.

For the even shorter version:

If installing a Tesla Wall Connector, you need one of these or one of these - unless you can find something that does the same job for less money (in which case there are lots of people who would like to hear from you...).
 
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So, a Type A RCD that offers 6mA DC protection, as suggested by my installer would seem to fit the bill?

It sounds like the installers suggested Type A RCD with 6mA DC protection is what some (including Tesla) call Type A-EV?

Yes. This is a matter of your installer telling you to get a Vacuum Cleaner and Tesla telling you to get a Hoover - "Type A RCD with 6mA DC protection" is the technical description, "TypeA-EV" is Doepke's name for it, and so far as I know they are the only manufacturer so far to make one.

This TypeB is cheaper, at least from the low-volume pricing visible online; bulk prices may be different.

Do we know that the Type A RCD pictures early on by @Yev000 is not a Type A with 6mA DC protection? How would we know what DC protection/detection it has, other than the AC and 'spiky' DC graphics - I didn't notice any reference to 6mA DC specifically. Looks like it may be this https://www.garo.ie/GAR1/GAR1-SHOP2/docs/Components/RCBO/RCBO 2 mod 6kA Spec.pdf (image looks generic 6A version not 32A) but again, no reference to 6mA DC.

The 6mA protection requirement is very new, so any device not singing about it in the spec sheet is very unlikely to do it. I don't think there's yet any standardised marking. TypeA and TypeB have been around for years and are easier to identify.

I am 99.9% certain that Garo device is an ordinary TypeA.
 
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Don't purchase the Tesla unit is the simple answer. The Rolec mentioned above is compliant and can use a cheap(er) Type A RCD and I believe it's eligible for the government grant for a fully compliant installation. If you have a three phase supply and want to maximize the charge (11kW for the M3) then I think the Tesla unit is probably the cheapest solution but you will have to fit a 3 phase type B RCD to be compliant.
 
Is armoured cable required inside a garage, overkill or recommended? None of my other cabling inside garage is armoured, but non are 32A, although solar is 16A and over specified but just to reduce losses. It was suggested to use 64A cabling just in case I want a second charger in future (minimal extra hardware cost, same labour) - would be happy at this stage to just load share.

I'm all for safety, but this will be running >7' up.

Quote came in more than I was expecting and looking to see if anything unnecessary is being included and can be cut back on. Likewise an IP rated socket was specified for inside garage for lawnmower. Nothing else in garage is IP rated although this will be maybe within 0.5m from garage door.