Tesla won't sell me a 90 kWh pack unless I give them my old pack for 12% market value

[swaltner]

"Hello neighborhood Tesla Service Center. Someone stole the battery pack off my Model S. Please come and tow it to your facility and install a new 90 kWh battery pack in my car. Did I file a police report? Nope, I only have liability insurance on my vehicle, so it's not worth the trouble of a police report and I have no insurance to make a claim against. Thank you for your assistance in getting me back on the road." Of course, you'd have to figure out how to safely remove the old battery yourself to do this...

 

[brianman]

Necessary to bring politics into this?

It was the best example I know of where the definitions of commonplace words were called into question in a broad public way. Politics has very little to do with it.

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I don't see the politics here, other than the fact he held office. If any other celebrity asked us to redefine the word "is", we'd be invoking his/her name here instead.

Exactly.

 

[Canuck]

"Hello neighborhood Tesla Service Center. Someone stole the battery pack off my Model S. Please come and tow it to your facility and install a new 90 kWh battery pack in my car. Did I file a police report? Nope, I only have liability insurance on my vehicle, so it's not worth the trouble of a police report and I have no insurance to make a claim against. Thank you for your assistance in getting me back on the road." Of course, you'd have to figure out how to safely remove the old battery yourself to do this...

So then Tesla reports it to the police. The police show up to interview you and find it at your home and charge you with filing a false report.

I know, you didn't file it with the police, and you tell that to the police, along with your scheme. They tell you that you will need to tell that to your lawyer since you can use that as your defence (after he asks for his $5k retainer).

 

[Johan]

So then Tesla reports it to the police. The police show up to interview you and find it at your home and charge you with filing a false report.

I know, you didn't file it with the police, and you tell that to the police, along with your scheme. They tell you to will need to that that to your lawyer since you can use that as your defence (after he asks for his $5k retainer).

Or he could just call Tesla and say: I took my pack out of my car. Will you sell me a new battery?

 

[Canuck]

Or he could just call Tesla and say: I took my pack out of my car. Will you sell me a new battery?

I'll summarize the last 18 pages for you: "Tesla says "no" unless you give us the old one back."

 

[Johan]

Tesla won't sell me a 90 kWh pack unless I give them my old pack for 12% mark...

I'll summarize the last 18 pages for you: "Tesla says "no" unless you give us the old one back."

Sorry for disturbing the entertaining but completely unnecessary thought experiments

 

[Max*]

I'll summarize the last 18 pages for you: "Tesla says "no" unless you give us the old one back."

Can you summarize page 19?

 

[green1]

So then Tesla reports it to the police. The police show up to interview you and find it at your home and charge you with filing a false report.

Tesla has no grounds to file the report, it would be them charged with filing a false report, not you. They'd know better.
They also have zero right to force you to file one.
They could refuse to sell you a replacement, but that would make great media coverage if it turned out you were telling the truth wouldn't it?

 

[bonnie]

They could refuse to sell you a replacement, but that would make great media coverage if it turned out you were telling the truth wouldn't it?

But uhhh ... this thread.

 

[Canuck]

Tesla has no grounds to file the report, it would be them charged with filing a false report, not you. They'd know better.
They also have zero right to force you to file one.
They could refuse to sell you a replacement, but that would make great media coverage if it turned out you were telling the truth wouldn't it?

I never said Tesla filed a report. I said Tesla calls the police to report it, in case it does show up, because they were told it wasn't reported. So the police open a file based on what Tesla told them, all of which is the truth, at least from Tesla's perspective. You need both mens rea and actus reus to commit a criminal offfence. There's no mens rea when it comes to Tesla so Tesla can't be charged with filing a false report.

But the customer can. As far as the police are concerned, they have a report filed and found the battery and even have an admission of a lie. Sure, you'd beat the rap. But saying the police don't charge people on these facts (they charge on much worse) is not a risk I'd take to get around Tesla wanting the old battery back.

But that's just my opinion. Someone try it and tell us know how it goes...

 

[green1]

I never said Tesla filed a report. I said Tesla calls the police to report it, in case it does show up, because they were told it wasn't reported. So the police open a file based on what Tesla told them, all of which is the truth, at least from Tesla's perspective. You need both mens rea and actus reus to commit a criminal offfence. There's no mens rea when it comes to Tesla so Tesla can't be charged with filing a false report.

But the customer can. As far as the police are concerned, they have a report filed and found the battery and even have an admission of a lie. Sure, you'd beat the rap. But saying the police don't charge people on these facts (they charge on much worse) is not a risk I'd take to get around Tesla wanting the old battery back.

But that's just my opinion. Someone try it and tell us how it goes...

That is such a ludicrous chain of events that I can't even imagine how it would ever happen. Tesla tells the police there's a stolen battery, the police ask the owner, who says, nope, not stolen, and the police charge that person? ummm.. no. Tesla would be the one filing the report in that case. (Which Tesla would never do, they'd instead encourage the owner to do so) So if the police charge anyone, it would be Tesla.

Telling Tesla your battery is stolen would put Tesla in a very tough spot. They have no way to prove if it was or wasn't, but if they behave as if it wasn't, and it turns out it was, they have a huge media problem. If they behave as it it was, and it wasn't, then they did what every sane person in the world thinks they should have done in the first place and just sold what they agreed to sell.

 

[Canuck]

That is such a ludicrous chain of events that I can't even imagine how it would ever happen. Tesla tells the police there's a stolen battery, the police ask the owner, who says, nope, not stolen, and the police charge that person? ummm.. no. Tesla would be the one filing the report in that case. (Which Tesla would never do, they'd instead encourage the owner to do so) So if the police charge anyone, it would be Tesla.

Telling Tesla your battery is stolen would put Tesla in a very tough spot. They have no way to prove if it was or wasn't, but if they behave as if it wasn't, and it turns out it was, they have a huge media problem. If they behave as it it was, and it wasn't, then they did what every sane person in the world thinks they should have done in the first place and just sold what they agreed to sell.

I don't see it as ludicrous. Tesla doesn't want their battery in the hands of a thief. They were told it wasn't reported for insurance reasons so Tesla reports it -- all with the utmost of good intentions. I don't know why you impute bad intentions and the press into this. Tesla truly believes it was stolen which is why they call the police. Once again, this is all done with the utmost of good faith and good intentions.

Once the police are involved anything can happen. Someone might even get shot...

 

[green1]

I don't see it as ludicrous. Tesla doesn't want their battery in the hands of a thief. They were told it wasn't reported for insurance reasons so Tesla reports it -- all with the utmost of good intentions. I don't know why you impute bad intentions and the press into this. Tesla truly believes it was stolen which is why they call the police. Once again, this is all done with the utmost of good faith and good intentions.

Once the police are involved anything can happen. Someone might even get shot...

The police wouldn't even take the report. I deal with the police a lot, I don't know any of them that would take a 2nd hand report of a stolen battery like that. I also don't know any business that would be stupid enough to report something stolen when they have no information about the theft. Even if Tesla was that stupid (extremely unlikely) and the cop was willing to take the report (also extremely unlikely) it would all be sorted out with the cop's first phone call which would be to the owner where his first question would be if there had been a theft, the owner says no and the cop does one of two things, shrugs and walks away, or charges someone. As the owner never filed a report at all, he can't be charged, the only person who did file a report would be the Tesla employee. But really, the cop would be more likely to just tell the Tesla employee to stop wasting police time, and walk away.

Your story is so incredibly far fetched that it would simply never happen in real life. the world simply doesn't work that way.

As for the press, if the battery really was stolen (and Tesla have no possible way of knowing if this is the case or not) and they refuse a replacement to the owner, you can imagine that news would get out, and the media would be all over it.

For that matter, the original owner could feel free to tell Tesla that yes, they did report it to the police. What's Tesla going to do? ask for a file number and call the police to verify? they have no right to get involved in that part whatsoever. Tesla really does need to decide in that case whether they want to risk the public backlash of refusing to sell someone a critical part needed to return their car to operation, or if they really do want to stick to this absurd policy of telling people what parts they are and are not entitled to buy.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla really does need to decide in that case whether they want to risk the public backlash of refusing to sell someone a critical part needed to return their car to operation, or if they really do want to stick to this absurd policy of telling people what parts they are and are not entitled to buy.

Once again as ignored multiple times: it's not an absurd policy, Nissan does exactly the same thing. There was no outrage over that.

 

[brianman]

absurd policy of telling people what parts they are and are not entitled to buy.

The unfortunate pattern here is that customers seem to be requesting a lot of reasonable things these days and getting unreasonable responses -- or no responses. I really wish Tesla would change this trend. It's currently bad for the company and bad for the mission.

 

[Johan]

Yeah all in Tesla's policy can be well respected even if you don't have to agree with it.

Also Canuck is right of course, in the preposterous situation of someone claiming their battery had in fact been stolen but they didn't report it, as a means of pressuring Tesla, they would simply say: "First we're going to report the pack stolen, as you just told us it was stolen, and then police are going to want to talk to you about this thievery of an item worth at least $25k (in which we have interest as well, seeing how we would want to know how we can improve security so others won't as easily experience such theft, and remember it's illegal to give a false police report - hint - hint".

 

[qwk]

That is such a ludicrous chain of events that I can't even imagine how it would ever happen. Tesla tells the police there's a stolen battery, the police ask the owner, who says, nope, not stolen, and the police charge that person? ummm.. no. Tesla would be the one filing the report in that case. (Which Tesla would never do, they'd instead encourage the owner to do so) So if the police charge anyone, it would be Tesla.

Telling Tesla your battery is stolen would put Tesla in a very tough spot. They have no way to prove if it was or wasn't, but if they behave as if it wasn't, and it turns out it was, they have a huge media problem. If they behave as it it was, and it wasn't, then they did what every sane person in the world thinks they should have done in the first place and just sold what they agreed to sell.

+1000000

If your old pack was gone for whatever reason, and you needed a new pack for your $100k car, Tesla would be extremely stupid to not sell you one because if that info got out into the news, the brand damage would be pretty severe.

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The unfortunate pattern here is that customers seem to be requesting a lot of reasonable things these days and getting unreasonable responses -- or no responses. I really wish Tesla would change this trend. It's currently bad for the company and bad for the mission.

Exactly. Some of the excuses are dowright silly.

 

[green1]

Yeah all in Tesla's policy can be well respected even if you don't have to agree with it.

Also Canuck is right of course, in the preposterous situation of someone claiming their battery had in fact been stolen but they didn't report it, as a means of pressuring Tesla, they would simply say: "First we're going to report the pack stolen, as you just told us it was stolen, and then police are going to want to talk to you about this thievery of an item worth at least $25k (in which we have interest as well, seeing how we would want to know how we can improve security so others won't as easily experience such theft, and remember it's illegal to give a false police report - hint - hint".

And you say, go ahead and report it. You've then called their bluff. They'd be stupid to report it as it would then be THEM giving a false report on something they know nothing about, and there's zero risk to you as even if Tesla was that stupid the police would simply ask, you say no, and your're done.
Tesla has zero interest in the police investigation either, because they were not a party involved. If my TV is stolen, the manufacturer doesn't get involved, and they have no standing to force me to involve them. Same here, Tesla has no standing to force you to give them a file number or anything.

 

[Johan]

And you say, go ahead and report it. You've then called their bluff. They'd be stupid to report it as it would then be THEM giving a false report on something they know nothing about, and there's zero risk to you as even if Tesla was that stupid the police would simply ask, you say no, and your're done.
Tesla has zero interest in the police investigation either, because they were not a party involved. If my TV is stolen, the manufacturer doesn't get involved, and they have no standing to force me to involve them. Same here, Tesla has no standing to force you to give them a file number or anything.

Not sure I agree with you here, but it's just a thought experiment anyway and not really important.

You could tell Tesla anything you want about how you need a battery, want to buy a battery, have a car without a battery for whatever reason. The point is they're saying they'll only sell you a battery if you trade in an old one AND let them install the new one in the car. Is this unreasonable? I don't think so.

 

[green1]

Not sure I agree with you here, but it's just a thought experiment anyway and not really important.

You could tell Tesla anything you want about how you need a battery, want to buy a battery, have a car without a battery for whatever reason. The point is they're saying they'll only sell you a battery if you trade in an old one AND let them install the new one in the car. Is this unreasonable? I don't think so.

The question is, if you really don't have a battery, will Tesla actually tell you that they won't sell you one and that you now have an undriveable piece of junk? I can't imagine that would go over well in the media.