Tesla's autopilot - "unsupervised wannabe" - Volvo says...

[BriansBucketList]

Electricfan, I've got the icon showing and an upgrade showing for 4AM. I'm in the Bay Area driving a one month old 70D.

 

[ohmman]

Clearly this is one person's misunderstanding of a feature. I think it's possible if someone read very little of Tesla's press about Autopilot, they might have jumped to the conclusion that it was autonomous. However, it was clear from the outset to me personally that this was not the case. I think that must have also been the case for the many satisfied Autopilot customers, or we'd hear a lot more of these complaints.

It is definitely disappointing when something falls short of high expectations - especially when you've spent so much on it.

On the positive side, if you can view AP as the feature that it actually is, and the utility that it provides, you'll realize it is quite useful indeed. By no means is it a zero value proposition just because you can't read email behind the wheel.

 

[BriansBucketList]

Before I took delivery, I had to activate the autopilot beta functions, and also had the chance to take a 3 day test drive. I knew what autopilot did and didn't do. I never drove release 7.0, but as I understand A/P operation, I thought it was looking for divided roads now. That's not my actual experience. The car drove itself through Niles Canyon, however, I did intervene once. It's a tool, and I don't swing my hammer without looking

 

[GoTslaGo]

Interesting.

I bought our S because of Autopilot, AFTER I had initially experienced TACC in a friend's Mercedes. When we test drove the S all we really had was the TACC. I had no expectation that it was more than TACC, but I knew that Tesla updates and enhances their software (hardware included). Thus my expectation for Autopilot was essentially TACC that would be able to be updated and augmented (which no one else can do easily). We have not been disappointed.

Also the price is VERY reasonable and comparable versus other "autopilot" like features in other car makers that offer them. BMW (min 1900, upwards of 5k, very confusing last I looked), Mercedes (2800), Volvo (I believe 3000, not sure), etc... Oh, and when you buy theirs, that's what you get. Nothing new beyond your purchased option.

Enjoy your autopilot, we certainly do.

 

[CuriousG]

Is it wrong I laughed loudly when I saw him get hit?

 

[Johan]

Electricfan: I'm amazed you thought you could sleep in the car while it drives you from on- to off ramp. How on earth were you able to come to this conclusion? What universe do you live in?

 

[P85DEE]

Is it wrong I laughed loudly when I saw him get hit?

Nope. I laughed too.

 

[rainman50]

I have a P85 2014 without auto pilot. I just missed it by a couple weeks in ordering. That is OK with me, bad timing. The only thing with auto pilot that I would be concerned with is if it would make a sudden turn into another vehicle with me not having any time to react even though I was paying attention and had my hands on the wheel. Other than that I'd be OK being responsible for any accident, i.e. having a realistic time to react to stop the collision. Any comments on this particular situation?

Since I have not driven an Auto Pilot car maybe when it steers right or left that it does it at a slow rate so as to not have that situation occur. That would ease my concern.

 

[lklundin]

I thought there was no way a car company could release an autopilot function and at the same time demand that the driver basically retain responsibility for driving

In most places the traffic law states that the driver has responsibility for driving (and must have at least one hand on the steering wheel).

So any car manufacturer that wishes to provide an autopilot function will have to repeat this demand, if nothing else to avoid liability law suits.

"Yes officer, I have been drinking but it does not count because the car has an autopilot". Better not try that, with current traffic laws.

 

[Electricfan]

Yes I would be. Your failing here is understanding that an autopilot needs monitoring and that you imagined the Tesla autopilot to be autonomous driving, when it is not.

I bought based on Tesla's advertising on its website, which was launched before the feature was available (by a LONG shot). Many people did. I'm by far not alone in feeling I was mislead. I had good reason to imagine the car would be safe in AP mode, and not that I would have to keep my hands on the wheel while in AP mode. What good is Autopilot if you actually have to keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any moment? The whole point of autopilot is to free you of holding onto the wheel, while keeping you safe. At least to me. Current AP is a fail, in my book.

Absolutely, although it wouldn't happen to me because I don't read email while on autopilot. This kind of post is just trolling.

No not trolling. You're the first (that I can think of) who has honestly said they are absolutely fine with taking full responsibility for an accident caused by AP, which I admire and respect. I'm not sure reality and expectation will be the same though. If someone dies, and you weren't fast enough to catch and AP mistake that caused the death, well I wouldn't blame you if you changed your mind. I was reading something today about the "snake" charger being the solution to coast-to-coast summon of the car on AP, and I shuddered. The idea of one of these cars being out on the road driving with no one there to catch a mistake terrifies me. I sure hope Tesla doesn't enable summons coast-to-coast until they have a real autopilot system working. Or autonomous, if you like that word-play stuff.

 

[Electricfan]

I understand and I feel your pain.



I can certainly understand your frustration with them over this matter.

Typically when this sort of thing happens, one good method of easing the pain is to purchase something else to offset the prior disappointment.

Would you be interested in a bridge?

I happen to have one for sale.

Purchasing your own bridge and charging a toll would give you a great opportunity to recoup some of the money you lost in this whole mess. Plus, it would pay for itself in no time. You could just sit at home.

Why people can't have a civilized discussion I just don't understand. Sorry if I upset you so much you had to write that.

 

[Electricfan]

It sounds like Volvo is really worried. It's strange because it used to be the "fast, long range, electric" part that sold the vehicle. But I was in the Vancouver showroom the other day and I was talking to someone who was buying the car solely because of the autopilot. He just came back from California where his friend had one, and he said they drove all over the freeways on autopilot and he was sold on it. He seemed to feel more sorry for me than I do when I told him I bought two years ago before autopilot came out. I think Volvo and other car makers realize they better catch up fast or they will lose out on a ton of sales, especially once the Model 3 is out. Bashing autopilot won't do a damn thing to change people's minds once they experience it.



We wouldn't have autopilot if Tesla didn't issue caveats that placed blame on the driver regardless, otherwise they likely couldn't get product liability insurance. It's a give and take world. We can't have it all. The caveat placed on it by Tesla is fine with me.

I agree with everything you said. But what worries me is I once felt great about autopilot. I thought I could relax and trust it, and have a much easier commute to work each day. But then, twice,(two separate instances) it tried to ram a truck in the lane next to me. I sent dashcam video of both incidents to Tesla, but they only responded to the second. They confirmed the car lost the lane due to a slight incline in the road, then tried to follow a car in front of me that, sadly was in the lane to my left. So the car changed lanes right on top of a pickup. Had I not grabbed the wheel I would have hit him. Same with the other incident. So I no longer feel good about using it at all. Please check in with your friend - see if he has any of these and how he feels after six months.

 

[Electricfan]

I'm still amazed that this is in any way unclear. Tesla have repeatedly (ad nauseam) made this as clear as possible. The feature they are releasing is NOT autonomous - it is autopilot which they then have clearly defined as being similar to aviation autopilot. The car is handling most of the busy work, accurately maintaining speed and lane position but the driver is still responsible. I'm assuming that is all that they have been approved for and that is certainly all that I ever expected. I'm sick of watching youtube videos showing people abusing this because ultimately there will be deaths. There is no way that the current hardware could do more. It is using the lane lines to manage lane position (most of the time) and at any given time the lane lines could disappear or there could be old lines visible to create confusion. There are a myriad of environmental conditions that could also confuse the hardware/software (though it appears to be getting smarter and smarter).
If you're not maintaining the ability to take over then you're risking your life and it will be your fault. The paradigm here is the same one that has been used for vehicles with TACC for a few years. The car is reducing workload but you must be able to intervene if circumstances dictate.
Within this well defined framework, I still find this autopilot functionality hugely useful just as I did when I first experienced TACC. I drove about 600 miles recently and I let me brother do much of the driving. He is not a Tesla fan and had no experience or expectation of the autopilot; however, he loved it. It makes driving much less tiring. Despite the fact that it is designed for driver supervision, it still provides a safety backstop for any situation where the driver has lost concentration, it also provides the ability that if a driver lost consciousness for some reason, it would provide the driver a better than average chance of being brought safely to a stop.
Tesla have suggested that autopilot is primarily designed for onramp to offramp and that it can handle that scenario. I don't know what the precise wording they used was but I take it to mean that the car will normally drive on autopilot without incident from onramp to offramp but I never took that to mean that the driver is not required to be in control - they have never suggested that to ever be the case with the current hardware and software. I also don't take umbrage with the fact that the car will occasionally ask me to hold the wheel. This is in no way tiring and is partially the by-product of so many people assuming an autonomous guarantee; however, it is also what allows the car to go into a safe slowdown mode as a safety feature. I let my hand touch the wheel most of the time anyway as I believe in being able to take control whenever required.
My final point is that whether you think that this feature should do more or not, to my knowledge there is no car commercially available right now that does it better. I'm primarily using the "Car and Driver" review as a source here as they seemed to test all of the current big players and Tesla did significantly better than any of the others. Essentially they appear to be the best autopilot available right now and it seems to be getting better by the month. Nonetheless, I don't believe it will (or should) ever be certified or advertised for fully autonomous driving with the current hardware and it has a hell of a long way to go with the software even if the hardware could handle the job. Imagine things like vehicles with hazard lights or police cars trying to slow down traffic. Currently an autopilot car would just blow through these situations. Just mentioning these as off the cuff examples of scenarios where a human's decision making is still required.

I certainly agree with 90% of your comments. But I don't agree with you saying Tesla is advertising it truthfully now. Where on the website do you see "On autopilot the driver must keep both hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any moment"? And without that statement, a prospective buyer will never assume that's the case. Am I wrong? Do you think somebody would look at the website and say to him/herself "Well, it says the car stays within the lane but I'm sure I have to have my hands on the wheel at all times anyway, and I can't read email or text or do anything like that, despite the fact that it doesn't say that in so many words".

 

[ohmman]

But I don't agree with you saying Tesla is advertising it truthfully now. Where on the website do you see "On autopilot the driver must keep both hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any moment"?

I think this is a fair complaint. Tesla should be clearer about the limitations of Autopilot on the website and in marketing material. Taking a cursory glance, I think someone could jump to that conclusion. And Tesla does seem to think that buyers should be able to buy online without ever test driving or going to a sales center, so the site should have more content. Plus, as you mention, AP wasn't demonstrable at the time you purchased anyway.

That said, I think there's a lot of hyperbole attached to that argument. Suddenly jumping to the conclusion of reading, sleeping, drinking and emailing seems like a far stretch. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. Believing that we've gone from 100% manual driving to 100% automatic driving is an overly optimistic viewpoint.

Caveat emptor.

 

[thegruf]

I use AP everday, I find it significantly reduces the stress of driving and I love it for that.

I understand the difference between autonomous and Tesla autopilot
(aka the best active cruise control and lane keeping assist available using a single forward facing monchrome camera, radar and sonar sensors).

I understand that I remain in control of the car.
I read the release notes and the manual.
I understand that ALL technology has its limitations.

If the car crashes whilst on AP it is my fault, I am in overall control even if the car is performing some functions for me, this is not difficult to understand.

I do find it completely bizarre that some people read apparently books and dont pay attention whilst driving.
My first thought is that such drivers are reckless and not using the cars in a safe manner.

Tesla in leading the pack on actual implementation in the real world just invite others to attempt to rubbish them, ICE vs BEV just adds further spice, and more often than not it is pathetic rivalry. These are early steps in this technology everybody knows this. Saying it is not written you need to keep two hands on the wheel on the website is laughable. If you want to check every last detail, then before you buy, request the manuals, talk to the helpful Tesla staff and experience it with a test drive. if you buy before it is relesaed then accept that you dont know exactly what will be delivered and when.

Use AP responsibly it is a great driver assistance tool.
Use it irrepsonsbily then maybe to tool is the driver.

 

[cdub]

But if I'd known the car was going to tell me to "keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any moment" I would not have bought it.

How could you have NOT known this? Elon said OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again that Autopilot IS NOT Autonomous driving where you can do what you describe. It is very much like the autopilot in an airplane where the pilot IS REQUIRED to be able to take over at a moments notice.

 

[brianman]

I do find it completely bizarre that some people read apparently books and dont pay attention whilst driving.
My first thought is that such drivers are reckless and not using the cars in a safe manner.

For those that want to read while using Autopilot, I recommend starting with the Autopilot section of the owner's manual that's available in the car. Very quickly you'll learn that you're using the current implementation of the feature improperly.

 

[cdub]

So you're absolutely fine with an accident being 100% your responsibility, even if a life is lost, if it happens because you are reading

YES! Because it is your responsibility. Tesla and on NEVER SAID YOU CAN not pay attention or read an email. Never!

Autopilot isn't ready for that and they never pretended it was.

 

[cdub]

I expected what they sold me - on-ramp to off-ramp the car will control itself.

Jeez... That is NOT what they sold you. Elon said that would be possible in the future but he NEVER ever said current autopilot can do that and was never sold as that.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think this is a fair complaint. Tesla should be clearer about the limitations of Autopilot on the website and in marketing material. Taking a cursory glance, I think someone could jump to that conclusion. And Tesla does seem to think that buyers should be able to buy online without ever test driving or going to a sales center, so the site should have more content. Plus, as you mention, AP wasn't demonstrable at the time you purchased anyway.

That said, I think there's a lot of hyperbole attached to that argument. Suddenly jumping to the conclusion of reading, sleeping, drinking and emailing seems like a far stretch. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. Believing that we've gone from 100% manual driving to 100% automatic driving is an overly optimistic viewpoint.

Caveat emptor.

The short marketing material is just like any other site's marketing material, having the bare minimum and talking in positives. I don't think Tesla expected anyone to think they could sleep or email when using it, so didn't need to put disclaimers like that (it just seems like common sense that is not allowed, especially in today's legal framework).

Look at Volvo's page for example. It also has absolutely no disclaimers about putting your hands on the wheels or that you are responsible for what happens. Such disclaimers just don't fit on a marketing page (the manual is a better place for it).
All-New XC90 | Safety | Volvo Cars

It takes just a quick Google (first links when searching "Tesla Autopilot") to find the press kit and beta announcement which describes autopilot in detail:
Model S Autopilot Press Kit | Tesla Motors

If you want to rewind the clock, search "tesla autopilot announcement" for the 2014 press release (well before autopilot was released) and it has the warnings he asks for (and I quoted in a previous quote).
Dual Motor Model S and Autopilot

Anyways, I don't think anyone who paid a reasonable amount of attention would come to the conclusion autopilot would enable you to read emails or multitask while driving. Elon did talk about this being a goal and possibility in a few years, but he wasn't saying autopilot had reached that goal (the current hardware suite is not enough for that).