Tesla's autopilot - "unsupervised wannabe" - Volvo says...

[MitchMitch]

Yes, I agree in the US it is more and more a "buyer beware" system. That's sad, to me. They should put this screen shot up on the Autopilot page on the Tesla website, if they want to be the "better, different company" Tesla holds itself out to be:

(My bold)
!?!?!? REALLY !?!?!?
The number of US/State laws protecting consumers from themselves is staggering!
https://lawreviewdrake.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/lrvol63-1-kubasek.pdf
My issue with making everything foolproof is that fools are so stinking ingenious.
I usually chuckle when someone suggests removing ALL warnings to let Darwin work things out.

 

[Electricfan]

(My bold)
!?!?!? REALLY !?!?!?
The number of US/State laws protecting consumers from themselves is staggering!
https://lawreviewdrake.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/lrvol63-1-kubasek.pdf
My issue with making everything foolproof is that fools are so stinking ingenious.
I usually chuckle when someone suggests removing ALL warnings to let Darwin work things out.

And why do you think those laws are passed? Its not because corporations are angels, to be sure.

 

[sandpiper]

Yes, I agree in the US it is more and more a "buyer beware" system. That's sad, to me. They should put this screen shot up on the Autopilot page on the Tesla website, if they want to be the "better, different company" Tesla holds itself out to be:

View attachment 174684

If I may be honest, I think that the information was there... at least to the extent that it need be. Other manufacturers all make TACC system. But none of these systems will take liability for throttle/brake control. They all are intended to be used by a driver who takes ultimate responsibility. Yet they don't go out of their way to tell you that - except perhaps in the manual.

I can see that you're disappointed and I'm sorry to see that. The autopilot system is vastly better than the first version that was released. While the current hardware will never get to full on-ramp to off-ramp autonomy, it will continue to improve and hopefully you'll come to enjoy it for what it is.

 

[Pale Hearse]

Well, so are you happy with Tesla saying "we'll drive the car, but you pay attention and take full responsibility if anything requiring split second response occurs." ? I just don't get that part. If they control the car it seems like they should take responsibility for driving the car.

Ah.. you mean kind of like a pilot?
Look.. this is really simple to dissect. Audi is criticizing a system they are not willing to offer. Tesla did because Musk is crazy. The result of that is a bunch of other butt hurt manufacturers basically saying.. "Hey.. you can't do that!!!!".

 

[vjlvjl]

Wow! Didn't know corporations can be jealous too.

Volvo fires at Tesla, calls Autopilot feature a “wannabe” - Modern Readers

 

[retinaguy]

Volvo doesn't have a comparable system in the market yet but wish to draw attention to themselves. Sounds like vaporware on Volvo's part.

 

[Zaxxon]

The core of the issue here (regardless of the validity of the Volvo engineer's comments) is that he's comparing a future Volvo system to a Tesla system shipping in cars today. Of course his future system should be better than Tesla's current system. Compare Volvo's currently-shipping Pilot Assist 1 with Tesla's currently-shipping Autopilot and let us know how you feel, Mr. Volvo.

I say this as someone who chose a 2017 XC90 over the Model X. I'd sure rather have Tesla Autopilot in my XC90...

 

[Superloud]

I think the biggest problem with this thread is it really should be 2 completely separate threads:

1) does AP live up to what Tesla said it would do?

2) do you think AP is worth the price?

Whether right or wrong, the OP clearly feels the answer to (1) is no.

I guess it's kind of a side effect of (1) that the OP effectively paid WAY more than $2500 for AP (cuz he replaced his 2013 MS to get it). So it's no wonder the OP's answer to this is also a big no.

Oscillating between these 2 topics from one post to the next I think is why this thread is longer than it is productive.

 

[Canuck]

I think the biggest problem with this thread is it really should be 2 completely separate threads:

1) does AP live up to what Tesla said it would do?

2) do you think AP is worth the price?

Whether right or wrong, the OP clearly feels the answer to (1) is no.

Actually, it's a thread about Volvo calling Tesla's autopilot - "unsupervised wannabe". But then it morphed into the two topics above.

I guess it's kind of a side effect of (1) that the OP effectively paid WAY more than $2500 for AP (cuz he replaced his 2013 MS to get it). So it's no wonder the OP's answer to this is also a big no.

I agree and I think you hit the nail on the head. I also looked to upgrade my 2014 non-AP car when AP came out and I got a trade-in quote from Tesla, and it would have cost me $36k to get the same car with AP. At that time, AP wasn't even functional, so no one knew how it would perform, and I think Tesla hyped it beyond its limited hardware, which includes: no dual forward cameras, no left and right short range radar, and no rear multi-mode radar (all of which are on the MB S-Class). Tesla's AP only has: front long range radar, front near/far infrared camera, and 360 degrees untrasonic sensors/sonar (all of which MB S-Class also has). In my view, Tesla is hardware limited, and it causes serious concerns, as you can read in this thread:

"Blind Spot Detection is disappointing"

If Tesla just added left and right short range radar like MB the blind spot detection would be vastly improved. Doing it with sensor/sonar is disappointing.

So I decided to wait for 2.0 before upgrading (and for the new front since I've never liked the front of my car), both of which I thought were in the works. The new front came out recently but still no 2.0. It boggles my mind since every day that Tesla puts out more vehicles with AP 1.0 it falls further behind in an area they want to be a leader, due to the lack of simple and relatively inexpensive hardware already being used by its competitors.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Actually, it's a thread about Volvo calling Tesla's autopilot - "unsupervised wannabe". But then it morphed into the two topics above.

I agree and I think you hit the nail on the head. I also looked to upgrade my 2014 non-AP car when AP came out and I got a trade-in quote from Tesla, and it would have cost me $36k to get the same car with AP. At that time, AP wasn't even functional, so no one knew how it would perform, and I think Tesla hyped it beyond its limited hardware, which includes: no dual forward cameras, no left and right short range radar, and no rear multi-mode radar (all of which are on the MB S-Class). Tesla's AP only has: front long range radar, front near/far infrared camera, and 360 degrees untrasonic sensors/sonar (all of which MB S-Class also has). In my view, Tesla is hardware limited, and it causes serious concerns, as you can read in this thread:

"Blind Spot Detection is disappointing"

If Tesla just added left and right short range radar like MB the blind spot detection would be vastly improved. Doing it with sensor/sonar is disappointing.

So I decided to wait for 2.0 before upgrading (and for the new front since I've never liked the front of my car), both of which I thought were in the works. The new front came out recently but still no 2.0. It boggles my mind since every day that Tesla puts out more vehicles with AP 1.0 it falls further behind in an area they want to be a leader, due to the lack of simple and relatively inexpensive hardware already being used by its competitors.

On the other hand, Tesla has pushed their limited hardware much farther than other automakers, largely by focusing on the software. I do agree that the autopilot hardware definitely has lots of room for improvement. Tesla actually said as much in their announcement in 2014 that the current hardware would not get them to their end goal of autonomous driving and that it would take a few years.

 

[Superloud]

Actually, it's a thread about Volvo calling Tesla's autopilot - "unsupervised wannabe". But then it morphed into the two topics above

Lol! Indeed. After 7 pages I forgot the original intent

 

[Saghost]

Tesla's AP only has: front long range radar, front near/far infrared camera, and 360 degrees untrasonic sensors/sonar (all of which MB S-Class also has).

Infrared camera? Are you sure about that?

Every FLIR installation I've seen has been behind a dedicated window - because traditional automotive glass blocks IR.

AFAIK, the only camera hooked in to the AP suite is a conventional visible light camera located at the rear view mirror mount.

I don't have a handle on Tesla's radar installation, but most automotive radar covers two areas - a 90 degree arc to middle distance (100m?) and a 20 degree arc to twice that. In the absence of information to the contrary, I'd assume Tesla has the same.

If the Rear view camera feed went to the AP computer, the system would have much more potential - though cameras/radar looking to the front sides are also clearly needed.

 

[Canuck]

Infrared camera? Are you sure about that?

I'm not sure about it but I don't know why Mercedes would say Tesla has it if, in fact, Tesla does not:

 

[Saghost]

I'm not sure about it but I don't know why Mercedes would say Tesla has it if, in fact, Tesla does not:

View attachment 174961

Huh. Interesting.

Unless the visible light camera also has sensitivity in Near IR, maybe? (This is what light intensifier night vision systems use. I think that passes through traditional glass. I know long wave/Thermal IR doesn't.)

Or maybe the dash camera is really only near IR - that might be adequate for reading the signs and lane markings, though I haven't looked to see how much IR the headlights put out (we know the car can read signs by light from both the HID and LED headlights, unless I'm very confused...)

 

[GoTslaGo]

So I finally got around to reading the article. Found this quote in the original Verge article:

"Unsaid here is that in its current "beta" incarnation (which customers have to pay thousands of dollars to enable) Tesla's Autopilot can suddenly turn itself off if it gets into trouble, and the driver must take over immediately or bad things can happen."

Figured I'd do some research about this (as I had looked into this prior to buying my Model S 70D, but prices have likely changed). When I bought our 70D with AP, I compared to 5 series BMW, MB E series, and Audi A6. We were replacing a BMW 5 series. Volvo wasn't in the running, but I'll include since the FUD is from them. To make things more comparable I've tried to include parking software, which we didn't, when we looked last year.

Mercedes (E series): Driver Assistance package: 2800. For parking assist: 970, but you need Premium package @ 4180 =
7950 total (2800 without parking assistance).

BMW (5 series): Driver Assist Plus 1700. Driv Assist Pkg 1800 (you click on the Plus, it automatically includes the Pkg for an extra 1800). TACC 1200. (No parking assist) =
4700 total (no auto parking).

Audi (A6): Driver Assist 2550. No parking assist (however includes parking system sensors) =
2550 (no auto parking).

Volvo: Driver Assist included. Parking assist: 1000. Vision package (blind spot visualization?) 1950 =
1000 or 2950.
(I was somewhat confused by the separate Vision package and comment about blind spot, so I included as potential price)

Tesla: Autopilot suite =
2500 or 3000. Future updates included.

I was basing my research last year on a summary article (mid to early last year) which rated MB, Audi and Volvo as having the best driver assistance package (rated "A", BMW was only a "B" in that article, which I cannot find anymore). Article preceded Tesla's Autopilot.

Just wanted to get prices out there so people realize that Tesla's Autopilot is actually very affordable in comparison to the competition.

 

[Electricfan]

So I decided to wait for 2.0 before upgrading (and for the new front since I've never liked the front of my car), both of which I thought were in the works. The new front came out recently but still no 2.0. It boggles my mind since every day that Tesla puts out more vehicles with AP 1.0 it falls further behind in an area they want to be a leader, due to the lack of simple and relatively inexpensive hardware already being used by its competitors.

I wonder how many like you there are - waiting for AP 2.0. I know I reserved a Model 3 for the sole reason that I want to buy it if it has AP 2.0

When they finally put AP software in our cars I remember them saying something to the effect that, yeah, we know its a bummer that you have to keep your hands on the wheel, but this is "Beta" software and we'll fix that soon. Anybody remember that? That was my impression anyway. If they leave us out here with AP 1.0 and never improve it - so that you constantly have to prevent accidents by grabbing the wheel - I think that's going to cause big problems for Tesla. At some point somebody is going to fail to grab the wheel and something bad will happen. It might be the fires all over again.

 

[Pruitt]

If they leave us out here with AP 1.0 and never improve it...

Come on, give it a rest already. They're continually improving it.

If you hate your Tesla so much, why don't you sell it and buy one of those Volvos?

 

[Beryl]

If you hate your Tesla so much, why don't you sell it and buy one of those Volvos?

Wondering if those who complain excessively will be put on the "do not sell to" list.

 

[Electricfan]

Come on, give it a rest already. They're continually improving it.

If you hate your Tesla so much, why don't you sell it and buy one of those Volvos?

Are you "happy" with AP as it is right now, May 3, 2016? Meaning if they don't improve it any more at all you will be satisfied? To me they haven't delivered on their promise yet. If you want a Volvo, buy one. I never said I liked Volvo or their cars. I just agree with their engineer who criticized Tesla's autopilot, so I posted about it on this public forum, which is what the forum is for. I also don't hate my Tesla - just the autopilot function that I feel was sold as a much more capable system that was delivered to me. But I appreciate your opinion, thanks.

 

[Electricfan]

Wondering if those who complain excessively will be put on the "do not sell to" list.

I assume that's a joke. Because if not, wow. Can you imagine living in a world where a company reads your Yelp reviews or something and puts your name in their computer, then refuses to do business with you if you criticize them? Well, I guess that's where we're headed, maybe. But talk about an awful world - that would be horrible. Nobody could complain about anything. Business's would rule by default. You would have to take whatever they sold without recourse of any kind if consumers lost all power. Sounds like something from a George Orwell novel.