The M3 terrifies BMW

[alseTrick]

The Bolt EV is not any uglier than the millions of other cars that GM sells every year.

So it's not any uglier than a bunch of other cars you presumably think are ugly?

The Bolt is ugly. And GM makes some ugly vehicles, just like every car manufacturer does. I nearly died at the horror of seeing the hideous abomination of a Ferrari "station wagon" driving past me a few months back, for example.

But GM makes a lot of nice looking vehicles. The Bolt isn't even close to being one of them.

 

[woof]

The average commute is 12.6 miles

Please explain where you get this number from. All web searches I've performed show average commute at least 15 miles in the US. Also, don't you want to get home? So given your number you'd have to double it to 25.2 miles.

However, real research shows the average daily driving distance in the US (as of 2015) is 29.2 miles (Source: https://www.aaafoundation.org/sites/default/files/2015AmericanDrivingSurveyRerport.pdf table 2-1) And since many drive that distance in the winter where EV range is about 20% less, then the minimum amount of electric range should be...35 miles. No BMW 'cept the i3 (and ActiveE...loved that car...RIP) can do that.

The thesis that small amounts of electrification is a better way to ration "scarce" kWh was put forth by our dear friend John Petersen. But as kWh aren't scarce anymore (were they ever?) then making a hybrid that handles the average daily driving distance in EV mode should be the least the auto manufacturers can do. I believe only two exist right now: the i3 REx and the Volt.

 

[aronth5]

........
Nope just that a few Teslerati who are posting here including the orginal poster are terrrifed of the BMW300e as demonstrated by their frenetic posts and hysterical attacks on the BMW300e.

Gee I thought the title by the OP "The M3 terrifies BMW" was pretty clear that it was BMW that was concerned. Not sure how you decided to twist the general forum feedback as "hysterical attacks" on BMW when that isn't the case.

 

[renim]

The common denominator is that they are all small-ish hatchbacks. I think GM will sell every Bolt they manage to produce. Though maybe Europe will be a bigger market than the US. Maybe.

I don't know about that, Ford Focus EV was far less successful in euope than Zoe, LEAF, VW eseries
Since the Bolt is not Europe made, I suspect Europeans will tend to just wait until there is a local equivalent from the above 3.
Since Gm is likely to prioritize USA sales, and Tesla will prioritize Eu sales, perhaps for mush of Europe, the Tesla will get there first.

 

[SageBrush]

It is sufficient to cut one's GHG by 50 to 80%. The average commute is 12.6 miles, just on home charging the BMW 300e would cut commuting GHG by 50%. If a work charger, by 100%. Add in all the driving that is within 10 miles of the home, some 80% and a BMW300e driver could reduce their GHG significantly.

This is a gross error. Almost nobody is average.

 

[Red Sage]

Agreed.

As a matter of fact, I'm rather pro-Bolt. Not that they got everything right, but getting one of the Big 3 to offer a med-long range EV for a reasonable price point is a positive step in the right direction, IMO. I hope they sell enough for GM to make their next effort even more compelling.

The thing is...? The threshold for 'enough' would be 200,000 units per year or more. And General Motors has already noted they have no intention of selling that many units of the Chevrolet BOLT -- ever. They also have no plans to sell that many of the Chevrolet VOLT per year. Two cars that if marketed properly, would absolutely destroy the Toyota Prius, and GM doesn't want to sell them to anyone.

 

[SΞXY P100D]

I don't know about that, Ford Focus EV was far less successful in euope than Zoe, LEAF, VW eseries
Since the Bolt is not Europe made, I suspect Europeans will tend to just wait until there is a local equivalent from the above 3.
Since Gm is likely to prioritize USA sales, and Tesla will prioritize Eu sales, perhaps for mush of Europe, the Tesla will get there first.

As a used Ford Focus Electric owner, I think Ford had failed miserably on marketing and pricing. Even today, 5 years after its debut, not many people are even remotely aware of the FFE's existence. Plus at over $41k USD it's way more expensive than a Nissan Leaf which features similar range. Not to mention there's a huge battery hump in the trunk that eliminates much of the practicality aspect.

So why did I buy a used 2012 FFE last month? It keeps me sane whilst waiting for the TM3, I have a long range hybrid as a fallback, it's dirt cheap, I can charge for free at work, it's semi luxurious, and it's got liquid battery cooling (which preserves battery life and efficiency plus it reduces the risk of fire) just like a Tesla.

On a side note, I believe Ford would've sold way more FFEs to an educated EV market if they highlighted the fact that the Leaf's battery is air cooled. I only knew of this because a coworker told me about it.

As far as TM3 & TMY sales in Europe, I believe the 3 will cater mostly to those who cannot wait any longer for the Y, or who plan to "put up" with the 3 for a while and then trade it in for the Y.

Then there's the Bolt which, I'm guessing, will cater to those who cannot wait (another 1.5ish years ) for the Y and to GM employees who take advantage of a company discount. (The Bolt is so lame IN EVERY WAY compared to a 3/Y plus it's more expensive that I don't see any other reasons!)

The TM3 sedan design, unfortunately, may not be practical enough for many. Hopefully Tesla comes up with a miracle breakthrough that would otherwise prove me wrong.

You just cannot deny the practicality of a hatch especially when living outside of the US where, oddly enough, most Americans view hatchbacks as cheap, are tricked into buying a hatch that is labeled as crossover/SUV/not-a-wagon, and wouldn't mind sacrificing practicality for a sedan with its elegant butt hump because everyone else owns one.

 

[raysspl]

Hilarious ad from BMW, no doubt. But effectiviness? Highly unlikely

 

[SΞXY P100D]

The thing is...? The threshold for 'enough' would be 200,000 units per year or more. And General Motors has already noted they have no intention of selling that many units of the Chevrolet BOLT -- ever. They also have no plans to sell that many of the Chevrolet VOLT per year. Two cars that if marketed properly, would absolutely destroy the Toyota Prius, and GM doesn't want to sell them to anyone.

I could think of 2 reasons why this is so.

1. GM is in bed with the fossil fuel industry.
2. Toyota has the reputation of being way more reliable than GM and offers one of the highest resale values.

 

[RobStark]

I could think of 2 reasons why this is so.

1. GM is in bed with the fossil fuel industry.
2. Toyota has the reputation of being way more reliable than GM and offers one of the highest resale values.

And yet GM sales about 10M vehicles globally, roughly the same as Toyota.

In the last two years GM USA has consistently decreased sales to rental car companies.

In the last year Toyota USA has consistently increased sales to rental car companies.

More sales to rental car companies usually mean lower resale value and the opposite is also true.

 

[SΞXY P100D]

And yet GM sales about 10M vehicles globally, roughly the same as Toyota.

In the last two years GM USA has consistently decreased sales to rental car companies.

In the last year Toyota USA has consistently increased sales to rental car companies.

More sales to rental car companies usually mean lower resale value and the opposite is also true.

Really? That leaves us with reason #1.

Sadly how the GM Volt should've taken over the Prius market but did not. Major fail #2 for GM - #1 being the EV1 fiasco.

 

[Red Sage]

Baby steps. ... For all we know, Chevy might already have plans on the drawing boards for EV Malibus, Impalas, Tahoes, etc., or at least comparable models with "new names".
And they may also be working on long-distance charging strategies.

General Motors has explicitly announced that they have no plans and no interest in either starting or participating in any long distance fast charging network whatsoever. They will do their level best to avoid fully electrifying their fleet for as long as possible. Ford has already shown them how to 'Game the System' with a minimally electrified plug-in hybrid with almost no fully electric range that nevertheless garners an EPA rating of substantially over 50 MPGe. That will be enough to satisfy them for some time. Because it allows them to still have gas guzzlers in their fleet while still achieving a passing Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) rating for the company as a whole.

 

[Yggdrasill]

As a used Ford Focus Electric owner, I think Ford had failed miserably on marketing and pricing. Even today, 5 years after its debut, not many people are even remotely aware of the FFE's existence. Plus at over $41k USD it's way more expensive than a Nissan Leaf which features similar range. Not to mention there's a huge battery hump in the trunk that eliminates much of the practicality aspect.

Don't forget - no rapid charging.

The FFE was quite slaughtered in reviews due to the battery hump in the trunk, the lack of rapid charging and pricing. They had to drop the price by a third and even at that price they just weren't selling. They stopped selling them here about two years ago.

 

[Red Sage]

There's plenty of people here in Europe that would pick the Bolt over the Model 3 based on the shape of the car. Sedans are pretty unpopular most places. The most popular cars in Europe for the first half of 2016 are:

1 Volkswagen Golf 321,772
2 Renault Clio 211,139
3 Volkswagen Polo 204,227
4 Ford Fiesta 165,34
5 Opel/Vauxhall Corsa 153,001

The common denominator is that they are all small-ish hatchbacks. I think GM will sell every Bolt they manage to produce. Though maybe Europe will be a bigger market than the US. Maybe.

Smallish hatchbacks are popular in Europe because with enormously higher vehicle taxes and tremendously higher fuel costs, they are among the most economical vehicles on the market to purchase and own. The Volkswagen Golf sells on the order of 1,000,000 vehicles per year worldwide. Yet VW has only sold over 40,000 of the Golf in the US four times in the past fourteen years. Meanwhile, the other cars that sell at or about 1,000,000 units worldwide each year, Toyota Corolla (over 300,000 units nine of the last fourteen years) and Ford Focus (over 200,000 units seven of the last fourteen years), seriously outsell the Golf in the US. General Motors has already stated the Chevrolet BOLT is not destined for distribution outside North America at this time.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Smallish hatchbacks are popular in Europe because with enormously higher vehicle taxes and tremendously higher fuel costs, they are among the most economical vehicles on the market to purchase and own. The Volkswagen Golf sells on the order of 1,000,000 vehicles per year worldwide. Yet VW has only sold over 40,000 of the Golf in the US four times in the past fourteen years. Meanwhile, the other cars that sell at or about 1,000,000 units worldwide each year, Toyota Corolla (over 300,000 units nine of the last fourteen years) and Ford Focus (over 200,000 units seven of the last fourteen years), seriously outsell the Golf in the US. General Motors has already stated the Chevrolet BOLT is not destined for distribution outside North America at this time.

The Bolt won't be sold outside the US, but the Opel/Vauxhall Ampera-e is scheduled to go on sale early 2017.

 

[Red Sage]

It is certainly a big factor in Tesla sales.

1. 10-20% of Tesla buyers are not concerned about GHG but buy the Tesla for the usual status reasons, it's expensive, rare and fast.

1. For those who do care about GHG, owning a Tesla confers quite a but of status for being the ultimate in zero emissions and for all the regular status perks.



It is sufficient to cut one's GHG by 50 to 80%. The average commute is 12.6 miles, just on home charging the BMW 300e would cut commuting GHG by 50%. If a work charger, by 100%. Add in all the driving that is within 10 miles of the home, some 80% and a BMW300e driver could reduce their GHG significantly.



Nope just that a few Teslerati who are posting here including the orginal poster are terrrifed of the BMW300e as demonstrated by their frenetic posts and hysterical attacks on the BMW300e.

Yeah. That does it . You keep posting the same drivel over and over and over again. Welcome to the [IGNORE] pile. Goodbye.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I will leave the commentary on the Bolt looks to Americans who can judge by local standards, but to my European aesthetic at least, the Opel Ampera-e (aka euro-Bolt) looks perfectly nice. It is definitely not aiming to be a weirdmobile. It looks like the kind of car there are millions criss-crossing the roads of Europe today. We love our little hatches (and stationwagons) here, don't we.

I would certainly buy one aesthetics-wise, were I in the market for an Opel. Actually, I liked the original Opel Ampera design too. Sure, there was a little bit of EV bling there, but it was not a weirdmobile by any stretch. If BMW had a real competitor to the Open Ampera-e/Bolt, I would order one today - but the i3, not even in its extended battery guise, it is not. And sadly, I fear that really is BMW's point, they'd rather sell me a 330e than an i3...

To me, GM is at least trying a little.

I mean, look at them. Not to even mention the door configuration... Which one is a weirdmobile unlike anything else the manufacturer makes and which one is basically a normal car following the design language of its manufacturer...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Yeah. That does it . You keep posting the same drivel over and over and over again. Welcome to the [IGNORE] pile. Goodbye.

While I never advocate the ignore button, nor do I use it, I must also admit my disappointment in that EaglesPDX's position does not seem to evolve at all given the dialogue. Clearly he either intends to troll with the fear-mongering idea or the conversation struck a nerve in him and that's just his way of lashing out. Neither seems very conducive for a constructive debate.

Final plead to EaglesPDX: Trust me, very few if any people here are likely to be scared of BMW's 330e advertising. Try to consider the far more likely alternative that they are annoyed at BMW for their apparent lack of EV effort in general and what could be construed as an attack-ad on BEV adoption in particular. It will get you further along in understanding the audience but also gaining acceptance for your ideas.

 

[Mark C]

The thing is with "ignore," is that if I ignored someone, then I wouldn't know why I dislike them.

I find it easier to enjoy this site since I used the ignore. It would be one thing if he stated his viewpoint and went on, but to beat it like a dead horse is just pitiful.

 

[Jeff N]

Then there's the Bolt which, I'm guessing, will cater to those who cannot wait (another 1.5ish years ) for the Y

The initial Model 3 cars probably won't be coming off the assembly line for at least another year and you think the Model Y will start rolling out within 6 months of then? I'm guessing Tesla will be focusing on quality and scaling the Model 3 for at least a year of production before the Y shows up. So that would be closer to 2.5 years.