The Tesla / Mobileye story

[scottf200]

I watched the first 10 minutes. They didn't name any specific car models that are being sold now that use mobileye for their lanekeeping type driver assistance. The closest is that they had a slide showing GM supercruise and Audi something. But not clear if available on cars now, and if so, which ones.
So do the Cadillac supercruise and Audi lane keeping products available now use mobileye? Any other cars?
How do those compare to Tesla AP?

If you are legitimately interested in this stuff then you are doing yourself a major disservice by only watching 10 minutes and then asking open ended questions. It was a fantastic presentation and they are doing some really great things. They have many big partners. HD map building using basic front cameras sold on many cars today just for ACC or LKA. (TIP I watch it on a PC browser in youtube and use gear icon to watch at x1.25 or x1.5 speed).

 

[bhzmark]

If you are legitimately interested in this stuff then you are doing yourself a major disservice by only watching 10 minutes and then asking open ended questions. It was a fantastic presentation and they are doing some really great things. They have many big partners. HD map building using basic front cameras sold on many cars today just for ACC or LKA. (TIP I watch it on a PC browser in youtube and use gear icon to watch at x1.25 or x1.5 speed).

I simply asked what mobileye lane keeping products are available in cars to buy now. The video doesn't appear to answer that question in the first ten minutes other than to say GM and Audi but it isn't clear. The remainder seems to be about what they plan to do, not what they have delivered and is on the road now.

The video simply is nonresponsive to my specific question.

The answer seems to be Cadillac Supercruise and maybe Audi models with lane keeping.

 

[Bladerskb]

I simply asked what mobileye lane keeping products are available in cars to buy now. The video doesn't appear to answer that question in the first ten minutes other than to say GM and Audi but it isn't clear. The remainder seems to be about what they plan to do, not what they have delivered and is on the road now.

The video simply is nonresponsive to my specific question.

The answer seems to be Cadillac Supercruise and maybe Audi models with lane keeping.

And i told you almost all auto companies... whats wrong with you people?

 

[lunitiks]

What is the difference between AP2.0/2.5/FSD hardware?

There’s no particular «FSD hardware». Tesla said HW2.0 is FSD capable, but for some reason upgraded to HW2.5 on all vehicles in ca. September 2017.

HW difference is;
- New front radar (moving from a Bosch MRR to a Continental unit with more canbus),
- New on-board Autopilot computer (ecu),
- New autosteering (power steerin) ecu,
- New electronic fusebox (efuse),
- New input/output or some kind of splitter in the autopilot ecu for the backup camera.

Do all cars with AP2.5 have the capability for FSD in hardware at some point?

Your guess is as good as ours. Tesla says it has. Tesla says alot. This is cutting edge stuff.

If the tech challenges for FSD require a new set of hardware is that going to be installed free for all that bought FSD?

Same answer as last one.

I have a car with AP 2.5 and IF Tesla can figure out/implement FSD I would gladly pay the price of $4000 for after purchase implementation.

You’re not alone.

 

[Unpilot]

There’s no particular «FSD hardware». Tesla said HW2.0 is FSD capable, but for some reason upgraded to HW2.5 on all vehicles in ca. September 2017.

HW difference is;
- New front radar (moving from a Bosch MRR to a Continental unit with more canbus),
- New on-board Autopilot computer (ecu),
- New autosteering (power steerin) ecu,
- New electronic fusebox (efuse),
- New input/output or some kind of splitter in the autopilot ecu for the backup camera.


Your guess is as good as ours. Tesla says it has. Tesla says alot. This is cutting edge stuff.


Same answer as last one.


You’re not alone.

Thanks...I thought I had it right in my head but wow this stuff is confusing.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

He tested the Cadillac Supercruise driving from NY to DC --which means on the ever crowded divided highway I-95. And he tested the Tesla in a drive to rural Maryland. He didn't test the Cadillac Supercruise on a drive to rural Maryland because he couldn't; it only works on divided limited access highways -- an environment where Tesla AP also does best.

Apples to oranges.

And he gets facts wrong. He says when you ignore Tesla warnings it disables AP until you charge, when really you only need to put the car in park to reset the access to AP.

Not a reliable comparison.

In my mind, the biggest differentiator as I understood is as follows. EAP makes occasional decisions to drive car off the road even if markings are clear. That doesn't happen with super cruise. Super cruise either works or tells you to take over/flat doesn't work - makes its behavior more predictable and better.

 

[bhzmark]

EAP makes occasional decisions to drive car off the road even if markings are clear. That doesn't happen with super cruise. Super cruise either works or tells you to take over/flat doesn't work - makes its behavior more predictable and better.

In other words Supercruise, by having greatly limited funtionality, i.e. only being usable on limited access divided highways, is more predictable. Namely, I predict it won't work on any of the other roads where Tesla AP will work.

On the cases where Tesla AP may still struggle, e.g., cresting a hill on a two lane road, Supercruise is more predictable by simply not working at all on any two lane road.

That argument is not persuasive.

On divided limited access roads like I-95 I don't see how Supercruise cld be any better because AP is near perfect.

Can supercruise also change lanes? No.
Can supercruise do anything on the other 95% percent of roads that are not limited access? No.

The author of this article understands the issues better and explains how Tesla AP is better than Supercruise. Tesla, Volvo, Cadillac: Which semi-automated driving system is best?

 

[daktari]

This test from Motortrend says Nissan performed better than Model 3, fw version unknown. Nissan use Mobileye, right?
The Automobile 2.0: Chevrolet Bolt EV vs Nissan Leaf vs Tesla Model 3 Long Range - Motor Trend

 

[scottf200]

This test from Motortrend says Nissan performed better than Model 3, fw version unknown.
Nissan use Mobileye, right?
The Automobile 2.0: Chevrolet Bolt EV vs Nissan Leaf vs Tesla Model 3 Long Range - Motor Trend

Yes, and in the USA (vs say Japan), apparently, only the vision part. Below via CES 2018 presentation.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

In other words Supercruise, by having greatly limited funtionality, i.e. only being usable on limited access divided highways, is more predictable. Namely, I predict it won't work on any of the other roads where Tesla AP will work.

On the cases where Tesla AP may still struggle, e.g., cresting a hill on a two lane road, Supercruise is more predictable by simply not working at all on any two lane road.

That argument is not persuasive.

On divided limited access roads like I-95 I don't see how Supercruise cld be any better because AP is near perfect.

Can supercruise also change lanes? No.
Can supercruise do anything on the other 95% percent of roads that are not limited access? No.

The author of this article understands the issues better and explains how Tesla AP is better than Supercruise. Tesla, Volvo, Cadillac: Which semi-automated driving system is best?

In other words Supercruise, by having greatly limited funtionality, i.e. only being usable on limited access divided highways, is more predictable. Namely, I predict it won't work on any of the other roads where Tesla AP will work.

On the cases where Tesla AP may still struggle, e.g., cresting a hill on a two lane road, Supercruise is more predictable by simply not working at all on any two lane road.

That argument is not persuasive.

On divided limited access roads like I-95 I don't see how Supercruise cld be any better because AP is near perfect.

Can supercruise also change lanes? No.
Can supercruise do anything on the other 95% percent of roads that are not limited access? No.

The author of this article understands the issues better and explains how Tesla AP is better than Supercruise. Tesla, Volvo, Cadillac: Which semi-automated driving system is best?

we'll have to agree to disagree. plenty publications done the testing and it comes down to person's needs and wants. for average driver (rest of my family), i would recommend Super Cruise over EAP. for myself and others who like to experiment, figure out every disengagement location and situation, i would recommend EAP.

who's better - DEPENDS
Tesla EAP Tesla, Volvo, Cadillac: Which semi-automated driving system is best?
Super Cruise: We tested out Tesla Autopilot and Cadillac's Super Cruise — here's which one we liked better
Depends on driver: The Battle for Best Semi-Autonomous System: Tesla Autopilot Vs. GM SuperCruise, Head-to-Head
Depends on driver: https://jalopnik.com/cadillacs-super-cruise-makes-the-self-driving-future-se-1819153551
Unclear again: Payne: Super Cruise helps Cadillac pull ahead on driverless
Super Cruise feels like a feature ready for the masses: Cadillac’s Super Cruise ‘autopilot’ is ready for the expressway
What I found to be the best thing about Super Cruise was how robust it felt. It didn't feel like something that was rushed to market. I didn't experience any bugs or annoying errors while driving. If you're looking for a comfortable highway cruiser, the CT6 now beats everything else on the road. You can eat, glance at a text message, shave, enjoy a sip of coffee, or other things you probably already do today while on a road trip but with Super Cruise taking the wheel over, it is much safer: GM's Super Cruise Is A Marriage Of Cutting-Edge Hardware And Software
I’ll admit I was saddened when Tesla over-the-air “upgraded” Autopilot to require hands on the wheel every few minutes. I’m heartened to see Cadillac introducing a hands-free—and fully vetted—replacement for that pioneering system: http://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-super-cruise-2018-cadillac-ct6-with-auto-pilot/

 

[bhzmark]

we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't agree that you articulated any basis for your disagreement, nor can I even discern what precise statement you disagree with.

person's needs and wants.

What person's "needs and wants" makes Supercruise better?

My argument is that Supercruise and Tesla AP are the same on divided limited access highways. Except with Tesla you can change lanes but not with Supercruise.

And in any other road situation Supercruise can't even try.

If you think Tesla AP doesn't work well on two lane roads -- then don't use it.

But at least Tesla gives you the option to use the driving assistance tool intelligently off the highways. Cadillac just says we won't even bother -- because they can't because they depend on LIDAR mapping.

Also the one substantive difference between Supercruise and Tesla is that they confirm you are paying attention in different ways. Tesla wants a hand torque on the wheel occasionally. Supercruise watches your eyes.
I find no problem keeping a hand on the wheel and I think that is safer to respond more quickly to incidents.

facts + evidence + reasoning --> Tesla is better than Supercruise

 

[NerdUno]

It all kinda boils down to whether you want autonomous driving that at times acts like a toddler behind the wheel playing Lane Darts or you want a system that's nearly 100% safe for you and your family, albeit on limited-access roads. I wish I had a nickel for every time my wife or daughter has screamed, "Turn that damn thing off before you kill us." Hyperbole? A little bit. Tesla ready for prime time with families you love? Not at all.

 

[bhzmark]

person's needs and wants.

It all kinda boils down to whether you want autonomous driving that at times acts like a toddler behind the wheel playing Lane Darts or you want a system that's nearly 100% safe for you and your family, albeit on limited-access roads. I wish I had a nickel for every time my wife or daughter has screamed, "Turn that damn thing off before you kill us." Hyperbole? A little bit. Ready for prime time with families you love? Not at all.

And you also ignore the point. If you are scared to use Tesla off limited access highways -- then don't.

Although I agree there are definitely a certain type of person that can't be trusted to discern when to use and when not to use AP, or be trusted to be vigilant.

Those are the people that will be better off in Cadillac. No Tesla soup for them.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

It all kinda boils down to whether you want autonomous driving that at times acts like a toddler behind the wheel playing Lane Darts or you want a system that's nearly 100% safe for you and your family, albeit on limited-access roads. I wish I had a nickel for every time my wife or daughter has screamed, "Turn that damn thing off before you kill us." Hyperbole? A little bit. Tesla ready for prime time with families you love? Not at all.

Very much this.

 

[NerdUno]

@bhzmark: I wasn't limiting our issues with AP2 to use on city streets. We've had AP2 do really stupid and dangerous things on interstate highways regularly. It's the unpredictability that is downright dangerous because you get lulled into a (false) sense of security only to have your Tesla spot an overhanging tree or sign that it happens to think has descended into the road. People behind you aren't expecting you to slam on the brakes in the middle of an unobstructed highway while traveling at 70+ MPH.

 

[bhzmark]

It's the unpredictability that is downright dangerous because you get lulled into a (false) sense of security only to have your Tesla spot an overhanging tree or sign that it happens to think has descended into the road.

Can Cadillac even sense obstructions that block the road but are passable underneath to some degree? LIDAR mapping will help with white listing overpasses, but not with sensing novel road obstructions.

Mobileye tech has driven into the side of a semi trailer, but not Tesla AP2.

Who has the false sense of security?

A Supercruise owner reports:

" If I had not taken the wheel it appeared the it would continue straight (not onto the ramp) into short cross hatched pavement followed by obstacles. Just as I was taking the wheel, it flashed red, much later than it should have.

Best conjecture is that the GPS got confused as to which lane it was in. The red flash at the end might have resulted from: Forward camera seeing cross hatch, radar seeing obstacles, or GPSrealizing which lane it was in. In any case this was clearly a glitch, and underlines the need for the driver to pay attention.

Another observation is that SC does not behave smoothly on curves. It over steers, straightens, repeats. A friend with a Tesla said the Tesla initially had that problem, but subsequent software releases have fixed it.

Tesla gets regular feedback from owners on self-drive issues. It would be good if Cadillac would establish a channel for direct owner feedback, especially on new technology such as SC. Such feedback might also result in more timely correction of some ridiculous software issues that persist year after year. "
Super Cruise: First Significant Glitch

 

[daktari]

I did believe one changed lane with GM Supercruise just turning the wheel, well over in the other lane it activates itself again. No need to disengage an any annoying plings.

 

[NerdUno]

@bhzmark: We obviously have very different views of what constitutes a legitimate road hazard. Hash marks and barricades would be a pretty good hint to most folks to take control of their car. An overpass or overhead sign would not.

 

[banned-66611]

The concept of L2 is itself flawed. We need L3 for it to be safe and reliable.

 

[scottf200]

It all kinda boils down to whether you want autonomous driving that at times acts like a toddler behind the wheel playing Lane Darts or you want a system that's nearly 100% safe for you and your family, albeit on limited-access roads. I wish I had a nickel for every time my wife or daughter has screamed, "Turn that damn thing off before you kill us." Hyperbole? A little bit. Tesla ready for prime time with families you love? Not at all.

I probably have 25K AP1 miles under my belt but only 200 AP2. I occasionally get a remarks when using it on 40-45 MPH roads in the suburbs and never on the highway. When my family or friends are in the vehicle I am hyper diligent and drive with 2 hands on touching the wheel. Anything that does not feel (road straight) and car does anything off that path, I just squeeze the wheel in moments time (2 hands on wheel) and continue. Some of it I feel I am help training the system.

@bhzmark: We obviously have very different views of what constitutes a legitimate road hazard. Hash marks and barricades would be a pretty good hint to most folks to take control of their car. An overpass or overhead sign would not.

This is much rarer now I think. You know there is additional detailed map 'tile' data that is downloaded to your car as you travel around. Just yesterday I was on a road that I traveled regularly where you go down a long dip and go underneath a railroad overhead pass. I've done this many time with AP1 and saw it worked perfectly with AP2.

The tile data also understand and marks this area.

Tesla tiles:

Google street: