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The Truth About FSD?

nxsynjs

Member
Jul 5, 2020
224
168
UK
This is a misnomer. There is (as far as I am aware, at least, not for normal cornering) no limit on allowable steering angle. The limit is maximum allowable lateral G force which last time I looked was 0.3m/s2 and is currently under revision. It doesn't help that Tesla's implementation of trying to keep within the maximum lateral forces is poorly implemented making it easy to exceed and the car not behaving consistently - ie it gives up mid corner and tells you to take control. The FSD beta does a far better job of keeping the car within lane when cornering.
Ah my bad. I guess the two are related.. Kinda... Guess the effect is the same. that of either aborting too early or slowing down to the speed of a one-eyed learner driver with a sore foot.
 

VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,309
4,813
Surrey, UK
It doesn't help that Tesla's implementation of trying to keep within the maximum lateral forces is poorly implemented making it easy to exceed and the car not behaving consistently - ie it gives up mid corner and tells you to take control. The FSD beta does a far better job of keeping the car within lane when cornering.

This video nicely demonstrates the progress that FSD beta has made on cornering capability. Its under 10 minutes and is basically 2 identical drives back to back. The only real difference is that one is done by FSD city streets beta, and the other Autopilot on the same FSD equipped car.

It also shows how little expectations and experiences we currently have of autopilot/FSD capabilities apply to the latest city streets beta version.

Worth a watch imho.

 
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Yev000

Active Member
May 3, 2019
1,262
825
Knaphill
This is an interesting video implying that there might be other issues with the implementation of the regulations. If Tesla software can predict better this problem might go away.

 
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Tony Hoyle

Member
May 7, 2019
953
581
Stockport, UK
interesting.. I've found in my limited testing on such roads that AP throws itself around a corner at full speed which then aborts just like that. A human slows in anticipation, because we don't like high G forces either, which is why his manual graph is so much smoother.

Hopefully FSD will be better at this (when they allow it to do the AP parts, which hopefully won't be too long).
 

Sparkeur

Member
Feb 23, 2020
387
554
Nouvelle Aquitaine
Hopefully FSD will be better at this (when they allow it to do the AP parts, which hopefully won't be too long).

The problem is some of what would seem to be the easiest fixes aren't being addressed. A great leap forwards would be anticipation of speed limits. Surely it can't be that difficult to start slowing the car as soon as a speed reduction sign is 'seen' by the camera rather than hurling on towards it and then slowing about 100 metres later?
 

Yev000

Active Member
May 3, 2019
1,262
825
Knaphill
My guess is that the last AP build is now 'abandoned' in favour dedicating resources to the re-write. I suspect there will be zero changes until FSD replaces the core program. It would make little sense maintaining an inferior code branch, all the FSD features can be behind a paywall.

that would also be in-line with the subscription model and self-advertising if AP performance improves.
 
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pdk42

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
1,035
1,019
Leamington
Basic autopilot tried to kill me today. Of course I was using it when I shouldn’t, but you know, it’s so easy to just push that lever up! 50 mph limit on an A road, and set at 50mph. There was a moderate bend right at the top of a crest of a hill followed by a descent. Of course, it didn’t slow down for the bend because it couldn’t see it properly so we hit it at 50mph - at which point the klaxons went off, auto steer disconnected and we had a moment of reduced g and some tyre squeal before I got it back under control. If it had been wet, things could easily have got totally out of hand.

To release a system that does this without any attempt to protect the driver from his/her stupidity is sort of amazing really. I’m still surprised that Tesla haven’t been taken to the cleaners at court.
 
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AndrewGR

Member
Oct 18, 2019
363
166
Oxfordshire, UK
Basic autopilot tried to kill me today. Of course I was using it when I shouldn’t, but you know, it’s so easy to just push that lever up! 50 mph limit on an A road, and set at 50mph. There was a moderate bend right at the top of a crest of a hill followed by a descent. Of course, it didn’t slow down for the bend because it couldn’t see it properly so we hit it at 50mph - at which point the klaxons went off, auto steer disconnected and we had a moment of reduced g and some tyre squeal before I got it back under control. If it had been wet, things could easily have got totally out of hand.

To release a system that does this without any attempt to protect the driver from his/her stupidity is sort of amazing really. I’m still surprised that Tesla haven’t been taken to the cleaners at court.
My impression is that autopilot makes no use of the map to anticipate upcoming hazards be they bends, humps or speed limits. What it can’t see with its cameras it doesnt know about. I’m sure I read in the early days that the cameras from all Teslas would feed back information to ‘HQ’ to build a fantastically detailed map of the world which would be used to enable FSD. I’ve seen little evidence this is happening.
 

Mrklaw

Member
Mar 5, 2020
233
87
Berkshire
My impression is that autopilot makes no use of the map to anticipate upcoming hazards be they bends, humps or speed limits. What it can’t see with its cameras it doesnt know about. I’m sure I read in the early days that the cameras from all Teslas would feed back information to ‘HQ’ to build a fantastically detailed map of the world which would be used to enable FSD. I’ve seen little evidence this is happening.

we humans have no maps built in (although yes we’d build a memory of a location if we visit more than once). You come up to a blind crest you slow down until you can see the other side - should be the same. Likewise for sharp corners - current autopilot just seems to go ‘oh this is the speed limit? Cool’ and then aborts through sharp corners because it can’t turn quickly enough, rather than slowing for the turn. Just doesn’t seem to properly adapt ahead of time
 
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VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,309
4,813
Surrey, UK
This problem seems pretty much solved with the FSD city streets beta, see the video here. As admitted, it was being used in a situation where it was not designed for. There are very few situations where it behaves the same on roads that are within the operational domain - I have encountered it on a couple of interchanges - its those that need reporting, not when it doesn't function in areas where the manual says its not intended for.
 
Last edited:

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,573
1,183
Norfolk
Several updates ago it would slow for a bend. It doesn’t now.
there’s one near my home. Leaving home it takes the outer curve nicely at 60mph but coming back on the inner curve it bottles out.
60mph is quite appropriate for the bend. I’ve lived here 23 years and every car I’ve owned here has taken it with ease.
 
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AnthonyLR

Member
Feb 21, 2020
576
456
London
That's a really interesting podcast interview. Karpathy really knows his stuff. With him and Elon on the case and feeling bullish about progress I am hopeful Tesla will be first to autonomy by a long way, if only because they have the most data gathering. I can't see it being good enough in the remaining 9 months of 2021 though.
 

Kenners

Member
Sep 29, 2019
182
164
London
This is a misnomer. There is (as far as I am aware, at least, not for normal cornering) no limit on allowable steering angle. The limit is maximum allowable lateral G force which last time I looked was 0.3m/s2 and is currently under revision. It doesn't help that Tesla's implementation of trying to keep within the maximum lateral forces is poorly implemented making it easy to exceed and the car not behaving consistently - ie it gives up mid corner and tells you to take control. The FSD beta does a far better job of keeping the car within lane when cornering.
Ah that's what it says. I've never had time to read the message when the thing turns off mid-corner, too busy trying not to crash :eek:
 
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AnthonyLR

Member
Feb 21, 2020
576
456
London
I wonder when this lovely birds eye view neural net will be enabled for normal Autopilot (not on city streets). Surely that would be a big improvement and much less hard than city streets?
 

Tony Hoyle

Member
May 7, 2019
953
581
Stockport, UK
We'll hear about them using it on AP from beta testers first I expect. It's a no brainer really..

The current beta birds eye view though is a bit rustic.. I'm sure they'll overhaul it as well.
 

CyberGus

Not Just a Member
May 5, 2020
820
1,773
Austin, TX
I suppose the term "beta software" is used somewhat broadly, but it traditionally refers to a product that is not yet feature-complete, and needs feedback/testing on the features already implemented.

Therefore, I would expect that Tesla's "beta" release of FSD would exclude features with known capabilities (HD maps) so that the users can better exercise features that need improvement (camera-based "4D" interpretation).

IOW, a beta release is only useful if it finds problems, and shipping known-good features that hide the problems is counter-productive. The final shipped product would lack this constraint.
 

Mrklaw

Member
Mar 5, 2020
233
87
Berkshire
I just want a birds eye camera view to help stop me kerbing my alloys in McDonalds drive through or some car parks with stupid high kerbs and oddly wiggly paths
 

GeorgeSymonds

Member
Mar 16, 2018
974
576
UK
I just want a birds eye camera view to help stop me kerbing my alloys in McDonalds drive through or some car parks with stupid high kerbs and oddly wiggly paths
I don't think that's coming soon as the cameras don't point in the right direction.

Back to the beta - I'd prefer that some features were signed off rather than the whole lot permanently stuck in limbo land. Maybe I am old school but automatic speed should surely have been mastered by now although seems not with the phantom braking we get. I guess features mingle into each other but if there was a way of having "tried and tested and not likely to give you a heart attack" mode, and a "new features enabled in beta, tread carefully" then it might be a more relaxing place to be.
 

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