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The UK police, the YouTuber and FSD...

Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
2,915
1,953
Bath, UK
I guess the law as it stands requires drivers to be in control of their car. The police take the view he wasn’t and have little choice but to uphold the law. Their response seems measured and appropriate to me under the circumstances.
Indeed.

At the end of the day if the Police clock you driving with no hands on the wheel for more than a few seconds you’re going to get done, regardless of what car you’re in or what its capabilities are, at least until the law changes to specifically accommodate fully autonomous driving.

The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986
 
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Lucanesque

Member
Aug 9, 2020
148
87
Brighton, UK
From the way the Teslarati piece is written it sounds like he may have been issued with a caution (it mentions a “formal warning”).

If that’s the case then he’s admitted guilt to accept the caution rather than risk prosecution.

I would expect that the police issuing statements is not at the bequest of the YouTuber but more from the perspective of seeking to discourage other people carrying out potentially illegal and risky behaviour.
 
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VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,316
4,817
Surrey, UK
and think that his videos do harm to the cause of self-driving and to Tesla with his ludicrous claims and frankly dangerous misuse of Autopilot.

I agree. I think many people watch his videos thinking that his use cases are valid scenarios to use Autopilot in when most of what he does is specifically outside the usage guidance that Tesla publish and you sign up to when enabling Autopilot.

I think most of the time, he is in good control of the overall situation, but its when others try and use in similar circumstances that there is potential for serious issues. Personally, there should be a "don't try this at home folks" type disclaimer.

However, just like Top Gear, its just a bit of entertainment with the occasional interesting fact.
 
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Neilio

Member
Jul 8, 2020
840
494
Brentford
I agree. I think many people watch his videos thinking that his use cases are valid scenarios to use Autopilot in when most of what he does is specifically outside the usage guidance that Tesla publish and you sign up to when enabling Autopilot.


To be fair he often says that. He usually repeats that it's not the best environment for autopilot and admits he doesn't use it there outside of the vídeos.

If Musk wants full automation by the end of the year, we need people trying it where it's not recommended
 
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Jun 25, 2019
117
124
Yorkshire
If Musk wants full automation by the end of the year, we need people trying it where it's not recommended

Well, no. FSD won’t be hamstrung by regulations. Autopilot is just LKAS in the UK - which, is at approximately level 2 autonomy.

This guy is posting videos as though “Autopilot” is at a higher level than it is currently programmed to be.

I’m in the charlatan brigade with this one. The guy is a total numbskull posting videos purely for the free SC miles.

Do. Not. Like.
 
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bhav

Member
Feb 24, 2020
436
244
London, UK
If Musk wants full automation by the end of the year, we need people trying it where it's not recommended

*facepalm*

Oh dear, you've been brainwashed!

This is just not true. It is Tesla's job to design the hardware and software for 2 tonnes of metal on wheels to operate properly, not a bunch of 'civilians' to drive around potentially endangering their own and others' lives.

Sure, Tesla can use the data from people actually driving the car themselves and compare that themselves to their own testing of autopilot/FSD. But to suggest that owners should go around testing its limits is nonsense.

What you're saying implies that autopilot is currently designed to handle situations outside of motorways/dual carriageways (in the UK). I assure you it definitely isn't! Read the manual! :)
 
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Neilio

Member
Jul 8, 2020
840
494
Brentford
*facepalm*

Oh dear, you've been brainwashed!

This is just not true. It is Tesla's job to design the hardware and software for 2 tonnes of metal on wheels to operate properly, not a bunch of 'civilians' to drive around potentially endangering their own and others' lives.

Sure, Tesla can use the data from people actually driving the car themselves and compare that themselves to their own testing of autopilot/FSD. But to suggest that owners should go around testing its limits is nonsense.

What you're saying implies that autopilot is currently designed to handle situations outside of motorways/dual carriageways (in the UK). I assure you it definitely isn't! Read the manual! :)
I haven't been brainwashed at all. I'm just pointing out that you're not really understanding/listening to what he's trying to do with his videos.
 
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Neilio

Member
Jul 8, 2020
840
494
Brentford
In your opinion what is he trying to do with his videos?

Well, from what he actually says himself. He's demonstrating where we are currently with autonomous driving. Pointing out things we are getting right and pointing out where thing needs improving, what things we have to address before full self driving happens.
 

bhav

Member
Feb 24, 2020
436
244
London, UK
But the car isn't autonomous! It isn't even trying to be autonomous (in its current feature set). He's using a feature in conditions it's specifically not designed for, then doing this faux startled OMG LOOK AT THIS thing, then posting a video which disingenuously claims the car has done something expected/unexpected.

It's misleading at best, but actually dangerous at worst if it encourages others to try his antics.
 
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GRiLLA

Member
Jul 5, 2020
465
451
UK
Well, from what he actually says himself. He's demonstrating where we are currently with autonomous driving. Pointing out things we are getting right and pointing out where thing needs improving, what things we have to address before full self driving happens.

He wouldn't need to be producing YouTube videos if that was the objective, Tesla aren't going to gain any data additional data from watching the video, and I doubt they will. All he's after is views to turn into money. He brings nothing of any value, and almost certainly puts people off choosing FSD by using it against what's recommended then making claims that it's unsafe, or that the EU has done something it hasn't to limit AP.

Where' his video where he drives without any great event using AP the length of the M6 and M74 to Glasgow and arrives feeling not too tired and generally safer than manual driving.
 
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Alistairuk

Member
Jun 25, 2020
401
261
Scotland
I watched a few of his videos before getting bored with it - they were vaguely entertaining but as others say eventually they just repeat the same story...

The only one that annoyed me was when he decided to “demonstrate” the Emergency Breaking System without any idea of how it actually works, or to give him credit, without mentioning how it’s intended to work in order to make it seem more dramatic and that it isn’t designed to operate at certain speeds - also most importantly it’s not designed to stop you running something over - it’s designed to minimise the impact and reactively break for you - There’s a nice big warming paragraph on the appropriate page in the manual - if you choose to accelerate or release the brakes it’s going to allow you to run over your cardboard cut out! anyway - rant over :)

Each to their own, people obviously watch him I don’t anymore as there not interesting.
 

Lucanesque

Member
Aug 9, 2020
148
87
Brighton, UK
Well, from what he actually says himself. He's demonstrating where we are currently with autonomous driving. Pointing out things we are getting right and pointing out where thing needs improving, what things we have to address before full self driving happens.

We don’t have autonomous driving in the UK. I think some of what he says is interesting, but how he does it is irresponsible - hence the recent brush with the law. Tesla aren’t looking to a guy with 100k YouTube channel to tell them stuff they doubtless already know
 

Neilio

Member
Jul 8, 2020
840
494
Brentford
He wouldn't need to be producing YouTube videos if that was the objective, Tesla aren't going to gain any data additional data from watching the video, and I doubt they will. All he's after is views to turn into money. He brings nothing of any value, and almost certainly puts people off choosing FSD by using it against what's recommended then making claims that it's unsafe, or that the EU has done something it hasn't to limit AP.

Where' his video where he drives without any great event using AP the length of the M6 and M74 to Glasgow and arrives feeling not too tired and generally safer than manual driving.
I disagree
 

VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,316
4,817
Surrey, UK
He's demonstrating where we are currently with autonomous driving. Pointing out things we are getting right and pointing out where thing needs improving, what things we have to address before full self driving happens.

The only things that can be judged as 'getting right' in UK is use of Autopilot/FSD on motorways and dual carriageways as currently anything else working is a either as a side effect of the motorway/dual carriageway functionality or unsupported baby steps of various degrees of 'done' along a feature roadmap that only Tesla knows.

Below are the latest (2020.32.3) disclaimers for Autosteer (Lane keep assist) and Navigate on Autopilot (NoA) that must be accepted before using the features. Autosteer is car wide disclaimer, NoA is driver profile specific. These are in addition to those in the manual.

They both make it absolutely clear that is is not autonomous driving.

Just like nags, it wouldn't surprise me if it becomes a problem with people ignoring the usage restrictions, that the decision gets taken away from us all and even more draconian regulatory measures are imposed.

upload_2020-8-28_9-7-14.png


NoA below is FSD only and is geofenced.

upload_2020-8-28_9-5-26.png
 
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NeilG40

Member
Aug 17, 2019
96
33
Yorkshire
It sounds like the "brush with the law" is made up anyway with the new site contacting the police for their opinion but nobody has contacted Tesla Driver.
 

Glan gluaisne

Supporting Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,782
2,696
UK
I doubt that any Tesla currently on the road will ever be able to drive autonomously, TBH. Tesla have taken a gamble by defining all the hardware they think may be needed for autonomous driving, building it into production cars and hoping that the rest of the problems can be solved in software, what's more, software that will run OK on the hardware they've already put in the cars.

That's a heck of a big gamble, as I suspect all the many edge cases will drive 99% of the requirement, and as many of those aren't yet well defined or understood, there's a fair chance that the current hardware just won't be able to handle all of them. I also suspect that newer hardware may prove to be far more effective at solving many of the autonomous driving issues, and inevitably that means that development effort will be shifted to that, rather than the older hardware in current cars.

My view on the current car system is that it's primarily a data acquisition mechanism for Tesla, to help them better determine all of the many edge cases that need to be handled safely. They've put just enough functionality in to attract a market for FSD, but with some pretty clear limitations on what it can and cannot do. This chap is constantly trying to get the car to operate outside its safe operating area, primarily because doing this attracts views to his channel. Tesla make it clear that the driver has to keep his/her hands on the steering wheel and be "in control" of the vehicle at all times, so if he is taking his hands off the wheel he's failing to comply with Tesla's instructions, as well as breaking the law.

I still believe the police need to clarify their statement, though. Using autopilot is not against the law in the UK, as long as Tesla's instructions are complied with and the driver remains in control of the car.
 
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Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
2,915
1,953
Bath, UK
Tesla have invited a lot of confusion over capabilities by calling it "Full Self Driving" and "Autopilot", but that's a separate discussion really.

As @VanillaAir_UK said they expressely state that neither AP nor FSD makes the vehicle autonomous, and are effectively "driver aids". According to the letter of the Law currently, as said before, taking both hands off of the wheel for several seconds - a necessary part of fully autonomous driving - is illegal, by virtue of not being in proper control. So, the Law doesn't strictly permit fully autonomous vehicles anyway.

I don't know how it's a big revelation that AP behaves inconsistently, or poorly, in situations it hasn't been currently designed to handle, and Tesla explicitly say that it should only be used on roads that have a clear dividing line, etc. As said above the YouTube guy posts a lot of stuff where he tests AP in town and stuff, and exclaims that it can or can't handle these situations as if it's a fact. Neither is true, and it's ultimately clickbait for ad revenue. Any such instance where AP happens to deal with an isolated event it hasn't been programmed to deal with can be considered to be purely luck, and is probably unrepeatable, or at least inconsistent enough to be unreliable from a practical point of view. It is dangerous to state that "AP can handle roundabouts!" etc.
 
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Lucanesque

Member
Aug 9, 2020
148
87
Brighton, UK
Tesla make it clear that the driver has to keep his/her hands on the steering wheel and be "in control" of the vehicle at all times, so if he is taking his hands off the wheel he's failing to comply with Tesla's instructions, as well as breaking the law.

I still believe the police need to clarify their statement, though. Using autopilot is not against the law in the UK, as long as Tesla's instructions are complied with and the driver remains in control of the car.

The police didn’t say using autopilot was against the law, they said not being in proper control of the car was.
 
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