Timeline Musings

[jcstp]

That it makes sense to limit option choices and to incentivize not downgrading?

If so, can you explain the panoramic roof? Why is it not included by default with a no-cost option to downgrade? Can you explain the rear seats? Why are they not included by default with ano-cost option to downgrade?

In either case, those actions would further the goal WhiteKnight put forth of limiting options and incentivizing sticking with them, but that's not what Tesla has done.

So, yes, I accept Tesla's pricing choice with negative feelings. They can price how they wish, but Tesla's choice isn't defensible as making any sort of sense from a production line optimization viewpoint. It only makes sense from one view and that's Tesla keeping as much cash as possible and I've certainly seen numerous people rush to Tesla's defense to say they think that's an awesome business move. I personally see it as an microcosm of why people hate how corporations view their customers as wallets with feet. Elon (or maybe George) stood at the Oct 1 event and called the reservation holders "family". I'd certainly treat my family better.

As I said, I wish WhiteKnight hadn't decided to defend Tesla on this as a product line optimization item. It's simply not defensible in that manner and Tesla's own actions with the pano roof and rear seat options demonstrates that. Certainly the pano roof vs solid is more difficult a production line item than the bolting on of tires.

It's one thing to ask me to live with a choice I don't like. I can do that. It's another to be asked to swallow a bogus justification for that choice. I won't do that.

I think an elegant solution could be a voucher for TESLA accessories?
Sharing your view with Tesla can't hurt I think!

Ranting about what WhiteKnight thinks will not solve your "problem"!

I understand why you are not happy, and I understand why TESLA is reluctant for the choice of wheels!

 

[ckessel]

I think an elegant solution could be a voucher for TESLA accessories?
Sharing your view with Tesla can't hurt I think!

I did share my thoughts with Tesla. I don't think a voucher or any other item is necessary. Tesla made their choice and it's their's to make.

Let's simply see it for what it is, Tesla trying to keep more cash, and just accept that fact. If someone comes up with a more logically coherent rationalization, then I'll be happy to accept that as the better explanation. What I'm not accepting are spin-positive rationalizations that are easily disproved.

 

[DrComputer]

When I bought my "launch edition" Lexus LS600hL I too had to pay a premium for being part of the first 100 cars. Along with a unique exterior color and interior leather (which Tesla is offering), Lexus also included a set of Neiman Marcus leather luggage and a nice jacket. I've suggested something similar to the LA Tesla store and they said that was a good idea at that they'd pass it along to corporate.

 

[ckessel]

When I bought my "launch edition" Lexus LS600hL I too had to pay a premium for being part of the first 100 cars. Along with a unique exterior color and interior leather (which Tesla is offering), Lexus also included a set of Neiman Marcus leather luggage and a nice jacket. I've suggested something similar to the LA Tesla store and they said that was a good idea at that they'd pass it along to corporate.

Yea, getting back to Timeline Musings. Whatever Tesla does that's extra for Sig holders, it would make sense to have it be as unrelated to the production line as possible. They really don't want to have lots of highly specialized production line work for something made only 1000 times (well, more counting non-US, but still a small run). Benefits like you mentioned (clothes, luggage, etc) would have value, but not affect the assembly line which in turn means it's not as likely to affect the overall delivery schedule.

 

[Norbert]

Maybe pano roof and rear facing seats are different since they would (initially) slow down production if every car got them. Or so.

 

[AnOutsider]

That it makes sense to limit option choices and to incentivize not downgrading?

No, that it makes sense that most Sigs are similarly equipped, that way they know off-hand that there are a certain set of things they HAVE to produce, no matter what people end up choosing as options. The rest of it, I'm honestly not going to "debate", because I think you've already made up your mind -- which is fine, but I disagree and would rather not spoil my positive outlook by trying to defend my happiness with a situation.

Let's simply see it for what it is, Tesla trying to keep more cash, and just accept that fact. If someone comes up with a more logically coherent rationalization, then I'll be happy to accept that as the better explanation. What I'm not accepting are spin-positive rationalizations that are easily disproved.

No sir, that's seeing it how YOU choose to see it, and trying to force everyone to see it the same. I don't expect to change your mind, but please don't try to make up mine for me. You have not disproved anything, you've just offered your own, more cynical view, which, without facts from someone at Tesla is just as "likely" as anyone's more positive musings.

Back on topic...

That might be a factory event I would go to. If they produced 6-12 maxed out cars in various color schemes and interiors before they were rolled out to the stores. That would give us an opportunity to look at them all at one time. We wouldn't likely get a test drive, but at least we'd be able to see more than just the one or two cars our local store received.

Agreed. Spend some quality time with the cars, lock in options, have fun. I'm just not sure if I feel like making the trip again to be honest. Not a fan of California, long flight(s) notwithstanding.

 

[ckessel]

No sir, that's seeing it how YOU choose to see it, and trying to force everyone to see it the same.

I'm working with what's known or demonstrable. Tesla is keeping the monetary difference on downgrades. That is a simple fact. As of yet, there is no argument that coherently supports keeping the money for production line reasons, as was easily demonstrated in comparison with Tesla's handling of the panoramic roof and rear seats.

So, we are left with the fact that Tesla is keeping the money and Occam's razor indicates the simplest explanation is the most likely. I offer that the simplest explanation is that they simply want to keep the money. Can you offer a simpler explanation?

and would rather not spoil my positive outlook by trying to defend my happiness with a situation.

You can be as happy as you like about it and I applaud that, but it's not really relevant. Tesla's action has some reason. Our happiness with it isn't relevant to the reasons the decision was made.

 

[brianman]

I wish this forum had a downgrading mechanism so I good spend football commercial time graying out the off topic rant posts.

 

[AnOutsider]

I wish this forum had a downgrading mechanism so I good spend football commercial time graying out the off topic rant posts.

Agreed, and I'm sorry for engaging (especially when I campaigned for the opposite in the Model S saving the world thread).

In any case, when someone brought up May for test drives, I thought that would be too late to begin deliveries, but then I realized, not for the average buyer. The sigs will roll off the line (behind any sig specials and VIP editions), and then, by the time the average person who needs to test drive one or see more in person to make a decision, gets one, it would likely be late August, early September or later, so that's plenty of time for them to view in May and still lock in their orders. The sigs and such are locked in to some fairly rigid options, so it doesn't make that much of a difference.

 

[Trnsl8r]

Agreed. Spend some quality time with the cars, lock in options, have fun. I'm just not sure if I feel like making the trip again to be honest. Not a fan of California, long flight(s) notwithstanding.

I asked a store rep in Santana Row the other day about when we may see units for test driving and such, and he was a bit evasive. He said that there would be test units coming eventually, but their top priority would be to get the first reservations holders' cars delivered, seeing as they have been waiting 2+ years for them...

 

[ckessel]

I wish this forum had a downgrading mechanism so I good spend football commercial time graying out the off topic rant posts.

*shrug*, I tried quite diligently to make my points somewhat dispassionately versus a rant. WhiteKnight made the assertion about option/cost rationale, it seems unfair to criticize others for debating something he raised.

If it makes you feel better, the forum does have the ability to ignore users. If you go to your profile's ignore list you can add my name. You can also choose to view any specific ignored post as they are listed, but not shown, if you want to take that risk.

 

[Arnold Panz]

I'm a bit confused about something -- was there some announcement or indication that Sigs could not get the 19" wheels if they chose? Also, don't Sigs have their choice of 4 colors (black, white, grey and red)?

I totally understand Tesla's desire to have as few changes as possible on the assembly line, and respect their decision to make rear seats and pano roof as the two options available during the Signature run. But AFAIK, they're not forcing everyone to get Sig red, and they haven't said that Sig holders must take the 21" tires. It wouldn't make sense for them to allow 19" tires and a lower price point -- the whole point of the Sigs (and this was clear from day one) was that it would be a "fully loaded" car with very few options, and if 21" tires are an upgrade/option, then that fits the bill. But I would think they'd allow people to take 19" tires for the same price during the Sig run. Do we know otherwise?

 

[WhiteKnight]

In any case, when someone brought up May for test drives, I thought that would be too late to begin deliveries, but then I realized, not for the average buyer. The sigs will roll off the line (behind any sig specials and VIP editions), and then, by the time the average person who needs to test drive one or see more in person to make a decision, gets one, it would likely be late August, early September or later, so that's plenty of time for them to view in May and still lock in their orders. The sigs and such are locked in to some fairly rigid options, so it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Yes.

That was the only point I was trying to make was that test drive cars don't have to be out there in circulation in March so we (the non-Sigs) can all pick our options 3 months before July delivery. The first batch of 1,000+ cars will all be Signatures which will be very homogenous and the vast majority of people will want all the options.

According to Tesla's website Signature deliveries will begin "mid-2012" (July 1st) and non-Signature deliveries will begin "Fall 2012" (September 22). So for 84 days they will just be delivering the Signatures. So really non-Signature reservation holders will not have to lock in their options before June (3 months in advance). And this jives nicely with the timeline that was outlined by the other poster.

 

[EVNow]

So TM should be able to ramp up to full production without issue in 5 weeks, but that won't happen I'm guessing. It will take 5 to 10 cycles to hit 400. That should take about 4 to 6 months (8 to 12 weeks) assuming all the other things I pointed out go smoothly.

Exactly. I'd guess the ramp up will be slow and chances of slipping the July target quite high. Let us also remember Tesla is building their first car here - and seasoned OEMs had very slow ramp-ups and delays.

 

[Robert.Boston]

If I were a Sig customer, I'd definitely want to test drive before finally committing:

1. Do I want the vehicle at all?
2. Is the Performance upgrade worth the price to me?
3. How does the pano roof change the experience?

While they may have fewer decisions than the Production customers, they still have some big-money questions to answer, and so test drives will certainly be important.

 

[Norbert]

"mid-2012" (July 1st)

"mid-2012" isn't July 1st. Elon elsewhere said "no later than July", which in Silicon Valley means no later than July 31st, with August being very late July . But I think it will be July unless something big and unexpected happens.

They also said they will ramp up production only slowly.

 

[WhiteKnight]

"mid-2012" isn't July 1st. Elon elsewhere said "no later than July", which in Silicon Valley means no later than July 31st, with August being very late July . But I think it will be July unless something big and unexpected happens.

They also said they will ramp up production only slowly.

They only have to deliver one car by July 1st in order to be able to say on their Q2 earnings conference call "deliveries have begun."

 

[Lyon]

If I were a Sig customer, I'd definitely want to test drive before finally committing:

Absolutely. I have no intention of buying this car without driving it first. If it's as good as I think it is then it shouldn't be a problem but I'm going to have to make a special trip somewhere that there are production model cars to drive before I finalize.

 

[Norbert]

They only have to deliver one car by July 1st in order to be able to say on their Q2 earnings conference call "deliveries have begun."

With Q2 results being given Aug 4th last year, it seems July 31st would be soon enough even for that. But delivery of Model S will be such a big event that I don't think that would be very important. However, my point is that if they deliver July 20th, then they are still early, so I hope that the whole forum won't go into a frenzy on July 2nd.

 

[Trnsl8r]

With Q2 results being given Aug 4th last year, it seems July 31st would be soon enough even for that. But delivery of Model S will be such a big event that I don't think that would be very important. However, my point is that if they deliver July 20th, then they are still early, so I hope that the whole forum won't go into a frenzy on July 2nd.

I expect it to be in a complete frenzy from about June 29 - July 31 and then some...