Torque and Horsepower upgrade kits on M3P?

[gearchruncher]

When did I say all cars would be Tesla?

One, by 2030 total vehicle sales are likely to be significantly lower than they are today for at least a couple of reasons:

So Tesla will sell 20M+ cars in 2030, but car sales will be way less than today (60M by your numbers). We're very close to Tesla being 75%+ of the market. That is very hard for me to believe. From 1.5% of cars in 2021 to 75% in 2030, and the real possibility that Lexus is gone by then?

All you argue is that nobody can catch Tesla, ever. How is the end game of that not 100% Teslas? History has never allowed a single car company to dominate in this way.

B) SOMEBODY is gonna have robotaxis working-- if not everywhere, at least in a lot of major cities. Thus reducing the need for car ownership significantly (certainly at least the need for 2nd or 3rd cars in a household).

Even more skeptical here that someone will have full L4+ robotaxis in 2030. I mean, we're so focused on Tesla being able to keep repeating their history. It's taken Tesla 5 years now to get to where 1/ are now (nowhere near L4+), so if they repeat that history, we'll still not have them. It seems that if we agree that Tesla may not be the leader/winner for autonomy by 2030, then maybe nobody will solve it in 8 years. It's also hard to see why we're so confident they will win the BEV unquestionably when autonomy could be solved by someone else.

Anyway, not sure 500k/80M (or 1M/60M) makes all that much difference. HUGE growth needs to happen across the industry to complete the conversion to BEV vs ICE, and history says this will happen across an industry, not via a company.

 

[RefreshedP]

Those Michelins are not OK. Until my (admittedly old) RE71's are hot, I can spin them, but I can never spin the Michelins (in a straight line...). But I also define performance as cornering as much as straight line grip.
What's the date code, size, and model of those PS4S?

235/35/20 square setup. I bought them as a set of take offs from a local guy. They were off his 2020 performance. They had had less than 15 miles on them before he took them off.

 

[gearchruncher]

They had had less than 15 miles on them before he took them off.

Wild. What a different experience! Are you experiencing particularly wet or cold weather? So hard to understand 3 years of using the PS4S where I've never had them spin at WOT vs your experience. My neighbor has a 2021 and immediately swapped the Pirellis for the Michelins and likes them much better.

 

[RefreshedP]

This is a pretty non-standard opinion in performance driving circles. The PS4S is the absolute king of street tires. It may be the actual best street legal rain tire out there period. When I've AutoX'd against people on the Pirellis vs the PS4S, I'm always way faster. The list of performance cars that come with PS4S tires from the factory is legendary (Porsche, Corvette, BMW M, AMG, etc), while the Pirellis are nowhere near as common.

It may very well be a better street performance tire when noise, rolling resistance, comfort, or drive-ability are all considered. But for peak grip and performance for 3 season operation?

The RE71RS is not available in North America, don't bother. It's an amazing performance tire if you actually track the car, but even the track junkies I know don't drive it on the street except to/from the track. It's noisy, wears very fast, and isn't great in the rain.

What is your goal for tires that outperform the PS4S/Pirellis on the street? The next realistic step up is the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2's, which are what come on the things like the GT3 RS. They do require more warming up to perform however, so they are lower performance on the street in most cases (just like the RE71's)

Sorry, but to base an opinion on a tire that you've only seen other people compete with throws to many variables into the mix. Until you compare yourself and run laps between the two, tough to really credit you. I may not auto cross, but I drive alot and have owned many high hp vehicles. For me to buy two or three sets of summer performance tires a year. Isnt unheard of. I've had a few sets of pirellis on multiple other cars and SUVs that were all 500+ hp. Honestly, I always felt they were lacking in certain areas. Whether be edge roll over, straight line grip or cornering grip. There was something that never felt right or adequate. The p zero elects are hands down the best pirelli I've used. And I'll stick to my experiance of running both tires hard. The pirellis are superior. I highly recommend you buy a set and compare. You may be surprised.

 

[RefreshedP]

Wild. What a different experience! Are you experiencing particularly wet or cold weather? So hard to understand 3 years of using the PS4S where I've never had them spin at WOT vs your experience. My neighbor has a 2021 and immediately swapped the Pirellis for the Michelins and likes them much better.

Temps the last month have ranged from high 80s to high 90s. And I've always warmed them up before pushing them. It's been rather dry here. Today was actually the first day I could test them out in the wet. We had a downpour and standing water on many of the roads. I didn't push them for a few reasons.

 

[RefreshedP]

Wild. What a different experience! Are you experiencing particularly wet or cold weather? So hard to understand 3 years of using the PS4S where I've never had them spin at WOT vs your experience. My neighbor has a 2021 and immediately swapped the Pirellis for the Michelins and likes them much better.

But to be quite honest, I have my own variables that perhaps skew the results Imo. My pzeros are on my oem uberturbines(32lbs). 20x9. The ps4s are on an aftermarket wheel fast fc04 20x8.5 And the fast wheel is considerably lighter(23.5lbs) than the uber. A part me can't help but wonder if the reduction in rotating mass is contributing to the excessive spin with the ps4s.

 

[gearchruncher]

Until you compare yourself and run laps between the two, tough to really credit you.

I actually have. My neighbor has a 2021 with the Pirellis. First AutoX he still had the Pirellis, and I drove it. Nowhere near the ultimate grip of the PS4S, but neither spun at WOT. It was only one lap though. Just as a data point, but he's much happier with the Michelins.

For me to buy two or three sets of summer performance tires a year. Isnt unheard of.

What? You don't race, yet you buy 3 sets of performance tires a year? That's like 40-60K of driving, or just flat out craziness on a public street.

he ps4s are on an aftermarket wheel fast fc04 20x8.5 And the fast wheel is considerably lighter(23.5lbs) than the uber. A part me can't help but wonder if the reduction in rotating mass is contributing to the excessive spin with the ps4s.

Ha. My PS4S' are on FC04's.... As are my RE71's. Wheel mass makes basically no difference in these cars. You are running half an inch narrower, but that's pretty minor.

Anyway, glad you found a tire you really like. Just making sure people don't run out and spend a bunch of money on the Pirellis as if they are for sure better- as I mention, it's not the common opinion or experience. I'm the most surprised that you can spin the Michelins at all. 0.9G is just not that much grip to need.

I'd be interested to see you put the car in track mode with both tires on and see what the max accel, braking, and turning you can get are. Personally, the PS4S is 1.2G-1.3G for me in braking and turning, and the 0.9G accel is limited by the motor.

 

[Knightshade]

So Tesla will sell 20M+ cars in 2030, but car sales will be way less than today (60M by your numbers). We're very close to Tesla being 75%+ of the market.

So 20 million is 75% of something less than 60 million?

(also 75% is somehow "all"?)

Might wanna check your math.

That is very hard for me to believe. From 1.5% of cars in 2021 to 75% in 2030

Yeah, it's shocking how easy it is to knock down strawmen you put up yourself isn't it?

All you argue is that nobody can catch Tesla, ever

Again- you're making up things nobody said.

They're not going to catch them by 2030 is the thing I actually said.

Some won't ever catch them because they'll be out of business.

Look up how many horse carriage makers survived the transition to cars. It wasn't 0, but it wasn't most of em either.

How is the end game of that not 100% Teslas? History has never allowed a single car company to dominate in this way.

You just answered your own question.

Some cars are objectively better than others, and yet those better brands still don't get to 100% market share.

Some people have weird criteria for vehicle selection.

Even more skeptical here that someone will have full L4+ robotaxis in 2030

They have them now in at least 1 US city, and in limited use is some overseas cities.

You don't think they'll be available anywhere else in the next 9 years? THAT seems unlikely.

Hence why I said maybe not everywhere but at least in enough cities to dent new car sales noticably.

. I mean, we're so focused on Tesla being able to keep repeating their history. It's taken Tesla 5 years now to get to where 1/ are now (nowhere near L4+), so if they repeat that history, we'll still not have them.

Notice how I explicitly said it might not even be Tesla that delivers them?

Again they exist TODAY. If nothing else happens in the next 9 years but "What Waymo and the others with working RTs today use gets much cheaper" we'll still have some form of RTS in at least major cities by 2030.

Sooner, and in more places, if anybody actually improves on the tech by then.

Anyway, not sure 500k/80M (or 1M/60M) makes all that much difference. HUGE growth needs to happen across the industry to complete the conversion to BEV vs ICE, and history says this will happen across an industry, not via a company.

Might wanna look up where Fords market share peaked during the horse->car transition.

It's higher than I'm suggesting Teslas will during the EV one.

 

[RefreshedP]

I actually have. My neighbor has a 2021 with the Pirellis. First AutoX he still had the Pirellis, and I drove it. Nowhere near the ultimate grip of the PS4S, but neither spun at WOT. It was only one lap though. Just as a data point, but he's much happier with the Michelins.


What? You don't race, yet you buy 3 sets of performance tires a year? That's like 40-60K of driving, or just flat out craziness on a public street.


Ha. My PS4S' are on FC04's.... As are my RE71's. Wheel mass makes basically no difference in these cars. You are running half an inch narrower, but that's pretty minor.

Anyway, glad you found a tire you really like. Just making sure people don't run out and spend a bunch of money on the Pirellis as if they are for sure better- as I mention, it's not the common opinion or experience. I'm the most surprised that you can spin the Michelins at all. 0.9G is just not that much grip to need.

I'd be interested to see you put the car in track mode with both tires on and see what the max accel, braking, and turning you can get are. Personally, the PS4S is 1.2G-1.3G for me in braking and turning, and the 0.9G accel is limited by the motor.

Great idea. I will do that and report back. Not saying the ps4s is bad in any way. There's alot of talk about the downgrade to the pirelli elect. I to was concerned when I heard of the switch due to the rave reviews of ps4s. But after logging miles on both back and forth. No one should be upset about the elects.

 

[Perscitus]

Coming back to the OP and thread topic.... this abomination from Manhart has an aftermarket power upgrade for Performance cars:

The MHTronik Powerbox extracts more juice from the dual motors of the already quite powerful Tesla Model 3 Performance. As a result, the electric powertrain produces a combined 543 hp (405 kW / 550 PS) and 720 Nm (531 lb-ft) of torque transmitted to all four wheels. This is a healthy hp 37 hp (27 kW / 37 PS) and 60 Nm (44 lb-ft) boost over stock output.

Manhart Is Offering A Tuned Tesla Model 3 Performance With 543 HP And A Grille Decal For $90k | Carscoops

Manhart's Tesla Model 3 comes with a modest power boost, a set of 21-inch wheels and lowered suspension

www.carscoops.com

 

[Phlier]

Coming back to the OP and thread topic.... this abomination from Manhart has an aftermarket power upgrade for Performance cars:

The MHTronik Powerbox extracts more juice from the dual motors of the already quite powerful Tesla Model 3 Performance. As a result, the electric powertrain produces a combined 543 hp (405 kW / 550 PS) and 720 Nm (531 lb-ft) of torque transmitted to all four wheels. This is a healthy hp 37 hp (27 kW / 37 PS) and 60 Nm (44 lb-ft) boost over stock output.

Manhart Is Offering A Tuned Tesla Model 3 Performance With 543 HP And A Grille Decal For $90k | Carscoops

Manhart's Tesla Model 3 comes with a modest power boost, a set of 21-inch wheels and lowered suspension

www.carscoops.com

That actually answers a few questions some of us have had about the Model 3 Performance.

Way back in 2016, someone asked Elon if there would be a Ludicrous mode available for the upcoming Model 3 Performance. His response was, "of course."

Now of course you can't have the pony outrun the horse, but now that the Model S has Plaid, there's a bit more room to let the pony run.

Maybe this will open up the possibility of Elon and company fleecing me to unlock that extra power and pay for a Ludicrous Mode update. To which I would reply, "shut up and take my money."

Edit: I guess I should read the thread before posting... I see that JJ covered the Tweets I mentioned on the first page of the thread. It's time to re-Tweet that to Mr. Musk.

 

[RefreshedP]

That actually answers a few questions some of us have had about the Model 3 Performance.

Way back in 2016, someone asked Elon if there would be a Ludicrous mode available for the upcoming Model 3 Performance. His response was, "of course."

Now of course you can't have the pony outrun the horse, but now that the Model S has Plaid, there's a bit more room to let the pony run.

Maybe this will open up the possibility of Elon and company fleecing me to unlock that extra power and pay for a Ludicrous Mode update. To which I would reply, "shut up and take my money."

Edit: I guess I should read the thread before posting... I see that JJ covered the Tweets I mentioned on the first page of the thread. It's time to re-Tweet that to Mr. Musk.

The big question is. What are m3p owners willing to pay? Obviously it depends on the power levels... Ideally, I would like this car to hit a high 10sec 1/4 mile. For me that's exactly a half second from my best of 11.46. If tesla kept it under 5g, I think majority of owners would purchase. But than again. If it were priced closer to 10k and we got a fancy badge from tesla. There would be a bit more exclusivity to the upgrade package.

 

[MaxwellN22]

The big question is. What are m3p owners willing to pay? Obviously it depends on the power levels... Ideally, I would like this car to hit a high 10sec 1/4 mile. For me that's exactly a half second from my best of 11.46. If tesla kept it under 5g, I think majority of owners would purchase. But than again. If it were priced closer to 10k and we got a fancy badge from tesla. There would be a bit more exclusivity to the upgrade package.

that would be a neat idea. And then we’d see these badges everywhere on eBay. Lol

 

[MaxwellN22]

Coming back to the OP and thread topic.... this abomination from Manhart has an aftermarket power upgrade for Performance cars:

The MHTronik Powerbox extracts more juice from the dual motors of the already quite powerful Tesla Model 3 Performance. As a result, the electric powertrain produces a combined 543 hp (405 kW / 550 PS) and 720 Nm (531 lb-ft) of torque transmitted to all four wheels. This is a healthy hp 37 hp (27 kW / 37 PS) and 60 Nm (44 lb-ft) boost over stock output.

Manhart Is Offering A Tuned Tesla Model 3 Performance With 543 HP And A Grille Decal For $90k | Carscoops

Manhart's Tesla Model 3 comes with a modest power boost, a set of 21-inch wheels and lowered suspension

www.carscoops.com

So the power is there. Tesla may as well sell it if aftermarket is gonna do it.

 

[gearchruncher]

So the power is there. Tesla may as well sell it if aftermarket is gonna do it.

Maybe...
Manhart doesn't publish acceleration numbers (yet?). This may be a peak power, that may only exist for a so short a time it doesn't make a difference.

It's very weird that they say the power comes from a MHTronik Powerbox, not a remap. This is a piggyback controller, that an an ICE vehicle lies about sensor values to get more power. If this is true, it means you can somehow lie to the drive unit via CAN (the only connection it has) and get it to put out more power. If this is true, then making a man-in-the middle CAN module ourselves should be pretty trivial. I mean, can you just request 531 ft/lbs from the DU and it will do it?

Also, just because Manhart can do it with no warranty doesn't mean Tesla can do it with warranty.

 

[Gimmethecash]

It’s going to take more than 37 more hp to get a model 3 into the 10’s, but I’d love to see it…or (more importantly) mid-to-upper 2’s 0-60.

And I would pay.

 

[Knightshade]

The big question is. What are m3p owners willing to pay? Obviously it depends on the power levels... Ideally, I would like this car to hit a high 10sec 1/4 mile. For me that's exactly a half second from my best of 11.46. If tesla kept it under 5g, I think majority of owners would purchase. But than again. If it were priced closer to 10k and we got a fancy badge from tesla. There would be a bit more exclusivity to the upgrade package.

It's unclear exactly how Manhart is adding its alleged power- nor where in the power band or for how long that power is available- and no actual measured performance times were mentioned either- but they appear to be asking $20,000 for 37 extra peak hp. With 0 warranty.

It's weird they wouldn't at least provide a 0-60 test or something for 20 grand unless the result wouldn't encourage folks to be buyers.

So no, Tesla isn't going to sell anybody an upgrade to existing model 3s to 10 second cars for 5k, or 10k, or likely any amount at all. It remains unclear this can even be done with existing hardware at all, let alone safely.

 

[Gimmethecash]

It's unclear exactly how Manhart is adding its alleged power- nor where in the power band or for how long that power is available- and no actual measured performance times were mentioned either- but they appear to be asking $20,000 for 37 extra peak hp. With 0 warranty.

It's weird they wouldn't at least provide a 0-60 test or something for 20 grand unless the result wouldn't encourage folks to be buyers.

So no, Tesla isn't going to sell anybody an upgrade to existing model 3s to 10 second cars for 5k, or 10k, or likely any amount at all. It remains unclear this can even be done with existing hardware at all, let alone safely.

They’re asking €20,000 for a claimed 37 hp, some hideous stripes, a hideous grille decal, tinted windows, 21” wheels and tires, H&R lowering springs, and a carbon fiber front lip. It’s stupid money for that, but there is more to it than the power bump. I agree some actual performance numbers would go a long way to back up the power claim.

We don’t know what Tesla may or may not sell us (or be able to sell us) with respect to more power, or what they may charge. Elon did say there’d be a ludicrous mode, but we all know he has a tendency to say things that turn out to be more wishful thinking and what we want to hear than entirely true.

 

[Knightshade]

They’re asking €20,000 for a claimed 37 hp, some hideous stripes, a hideous grille decal, tinted windows, 21” wheels and tires, H&R lowering springs, and a carbon fiber front lip. It’s stupid money for that, but there is more to it than the power bump. I agree some actual performance numbers would go a long way to back up the power claim.

We don’t know what Tesla may or may not sell us (or be able to sell us) with respect to more power

Sure we do.

AB on the LR AWD cars. That's it.

You think Tesla would leave easy $ on the table if it existed?

Elon did say there’d be a ludicrous mode, but we all know he has a tendency to say things that turn out to be more wishful thinking and what we want to hear than entirely true.

Exactly. He says stuff all the time that never materializes.


I suppose someone with a lot of $ to burn could try swapping a Model Y Performance powertrain into a 3 and seeing if they get any measurable performance gain


BTW weirdly the original source for "Y makes more power" appears to be Dragtimes using a 3rd party app to read motor outputs... where they measured the Model 3 at.... 579.215 hp.

Which is more than the supposed $20,000 "mod" gives you.

Meanwhile Mountain Pass put a Y performance on a dyno and only got...505 hp. The same # the 20k mod guys quote as "stock" on a 3P.

So that's weird.

 

[gearchruncher]

I mean, it's 99% likely that you can get more power from the motors and batteries physically. But I've always assumed this was protected by Tesla's firmware in the drive units, and in order to do it, you'd need to change the firmware. This firmware is likely authenticated with secure boot, so you can't really do this (like Nobody has cracked the C8 Corvette ECU and likely never will)

The fact that Manhart claims to have added HP with an external module means the DUs will put out more power if you request it from them.

I suppose someone with a lot of $ to burn could try swapping a Model Y Performance powertrain into a 3 and seeing if they get any measurable performance gain

But even with this, it's unclear (to me at least) where the power "limit" comes from. The DU's are not requested 0-100% power from the throttle pedal. They are requested torque, because something else needs to manage torque split between the axles and do traction control, track mode, etc. So maybe the rest of the Model 3 would never request this extra 25HP even if the DU's could do it. And this assumes the car wouldn't just immediately load Model 3 firmware on the DU..

The quicker path might be seeing if one of the people with root/deeper access knows of a way to make your Model 3 think it's a Model Y, updating all firmware, and seeing if that changes the power limit at all.