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I first rode in a Tesla using FSD back in 2014

No, you did not.


, and I was "driving" with it on LA freeways in 2015. They called it "Autopilot" back then because

....It was a completely different product that had nothing to do with FSD.



that's the obvious name for a car that self-drives

Except, it's not.


As any actual pilot would understand.

Autopilot is an ADAS in aircraft- it must always be supervised by an actual, qualified to control the vehicle, human.

Just like autopilot in a Tesla.

it's absolutely NOT FSD.


and it already had most of today's current capability, including the ability to change lanes.

Again- not remotely no.

It had a single forward camera. It had 0 blind spot detection other than the super-short-range ultrasonics. It had 0 ability to recognize or react to stop signs, stop lights, or handle intersections, exits, or highway exchanges of any kind.

They backtracked many years later by inventing the term "FSD" to retroactively downgrade the initial "Autopilot" aspirations as unachievable dead-ends.

Again- no.


That's a story from mid 2015 where they explain what AP introduced in late 2014 is right then- and when it intends to be in the future. Note this in particular:

it is not meant to ever be a fully self-driving car


It promises NONE of the features I just listed as FSD having but AP1 never did.

They didn't "retroactively" create FSD to describe features promised to original AP- they never promised those things because the HW was never remotely going to be capable of them. How would a car with nothing but a single forward camera and a single low-res forward radar ever handle intersections for example? It can't see oncoming traffic to the sides.


IOW, I concur with:

Your concurrence appears based on you "remembering" a lot of things that aren't actually true though.
 
No, you did not.

Yes, I did.

And yes, in 2014 it handled stop signs, lane changes, traffic, speed limit signs, etc. with no human intervention - no hand holding or eye-tracking because it was intended to become fully autonomous once the code was ready. It was most certainly not a "different product" and the term "FSD" had not yet been invented - it was just "Autopilot".

And any actual pilot would understand that "autopilot" systems can potentially perform all functions from airport to airport without human intervention. Also, you might have heard of "drones" which also use little gizmos called...? Heck, even Elon knew what the term "autopilot" meant at the time:


 
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Yes, I did.

Yeah, you really did not.


And yes, in 2014 it handled stop signs, lane changes, traffic, speed limit signs, etc. with no human intervention - no hand holding or eye-tracking because it was intended to become fully autonomous once the code was ready. It was most certainly not a "different product".

Again you're stating things flat out factually untrue. Many of them.

I just cited you a story from 2015 confirming you're wrong, and that it was never intended to be fully autonomous.

But here's 2014 when AP was first introduced-

He cautioned, however, that “autopilot” was not fully autonomous driving and would not allow a driver to fall asleep at the wheel.

The "he" in the story is Elon Musk. The day they announced AP1.

Your claim it was ever intended or promised as full self driving is flat out false

But hey don't believe tons of news stories- here's Tesla telling you you're wrong.


That's from October 10, 2014. The day AP1 was introduced. Which also says you're wrong.


Tesla said:
Model S will be able to steer to stay within a lane, change lanes with the simple tap of a turn signal, and manage speed by reading road signs and using active, traffic aware cruise control. It will take several months for all Autopilot features to be completed and uploaded to the cars.

Our goal with the introduction of this new hardware and software is not to enable driverless cars, which are still years away from becoming a reality. Our system is called Autopilot because it’s similar to systems that pilots use to increase comfort and safety when conditions are clear. Tesla’s Autopilot is a way to relieve drivers of the most boring and potentially dangerous aspects of road travel – but the driver is still responsible for, and ultimately in control of, the car.


Oh look- exactly what I told you, and directly contradictory to your claims.


Not sure how much clearer this can be made to you.

Nor did it "handle" stop signs- it SAW them but didn't stop for them. Red lights it couldn't even see at all since the camera was not color. It was incapable of doing anything at an intersection other than driving straight through it without regard to any cross traffic or state of traffic control devices, only slowing or stopping if there was another car directly in front stopped or slowing. Nor did it do automatic lane changes, only human commanded ones- because it lacked the HW to safely do automatic ones.





And any actual pilot would understand that "autopilot" systems can perform all functions from airport to airport without human intervention.

Physically "can"? Possibly depending on the system. Are intended or allowed to? Nope.


That doc, from the FAA, includes the definitions they use for specific aircraft systems. Including Autopilot

FAA definition of autopilot said:
Autopilot. An aircraft system and associated sensors designed to provide automatic control of the pitch, roll, and, in certain instances, yaw axis of an aircraft.

Which is exactly what AP in a Tesla does. It CAN be turned on and the driver can go to sleep, but it's not intended or allowed legally to be used that way.

Because as the FAA doc explains- and as Tesla does in the description of AP, the pilot (driver) is still always responsible for being present, attentive, monitoring the vehicle to insure it's doing things correctly, and immediately available to take manual control if needed.
Again- exactly like AP in a Tesla.

In contrast, actual self-driving-- which neither passenger aircraft nor Teslas do, do not require a human at all



Heck, even Elon knew what the term "autopilot" meant at the time:



Except, of course, the word autopilot appears 0 times in the quote you just cited.

Again you appear to be remembering a lot of stuff that's flat out false.
 
afadeev said:
After 7 years of trying (initial FSD beta was released in 2016), it appears Tesla has given up on achieving L3 autonomy with AP/FSD hardware.

...what?

The first release of FSD beta was in October 2020.

Someone doesn't know Tesla's history, and doesn't Google much.
I picked up my TM3P in early 2019, and FSD was already an upsell at that time.
Tesla first offered Full Self-Driving (FSD) as an upgrade option to EA on Model S in 2016:

2016 is also renown for Tesla FAKING an FSD video of car driving for long period of time without driver input. In a settled law suit later, it was revealed that it was just an edit job from dozens of takes where human take-over was edited out.

afadeev said:
They are just ripping out the hardware to lower the cost of delivering now industry-standard ADAS features.

Industry-standard?
What other cars can I buy that will drive/navigate on city streets, follow routes on different local roads, make turns at intersections, etc?

Certainly not Tesla.
Not with any degree of reliability and dependency.

You can pick any of the Elon's BS promises, but I will link one for you from October 20, 2016, so stay consistent with the timeline:
"We are excited to announce that, as of today, all Tesla vehicles produced in our factory – including Model 3 – will have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver."​
That pure an utter BS, on multiple levels, is still up on Tesla's web site:

Industry standard is what basic autopilot offers- TACC and single-lane autosteer- it's not remotely what FSDb does.

Both AP and FSD have been exceeded by offerings from GM and Mercedes.
Other have advanced, while Tesla has stagnated and BS-ed its way with false promises and boasts for the past 7 years.

I guess blatantly ripping off MobilEye in 2018, without attribution or licensing, did not pay off for Elon and Tesla afterall. Tesla is stuck in a technological dead-end, while Mercedes and MobilEye beat them to L3:

Sad, but true.
 
Someone doesn't know Tesla's history, and doesn't Google much.

Yes, you.


I picked up my TM3P in early 2019, and FSD was already an upsell at that time.
Tesla first offered Full Self-Driving (FSD) as an upgrade option to EA on Model S in 2016:

You are confusing fsdb (the thing you wrongly claimed was many years older than it actually is and whose first release was in October 2020 and offers driving on city streets.) with FSD (which was launched in October 2016- but did not actually offer any working features at the time and wouldn't for several years-it was sold entirely as a "you will get stuff some time in the future, nothing today" product).


Reminder of what you actually said

After 7 years of trying (initial FSD beta was released in 2016)


This is false. FSDb initial release was Oct 2020.



2016 is also renown for Tesla FAKING an FSD video of car driving for long period of time without driver input. In a settled law suit later, it was revealed that it was just an edit job from dozens of takes where human take-over was edited out.

Absolutely.

The 2019 video on the other hand, shortly before the thing that was actually being discussed, fsdb, came out, was done in a single take with no faking or editing.



Certainly not Tesla.
Not with any degree of reliability and dependency.

Works about 90% of the time for me.

Which is 90% more often than it works for any other brand of car sold to consumers.

That's why it's L2 though, it's not supposed to work perfectly all the time-- not even the vastly less capable L2 systems from others do, and the manuals all warn you about that and it's why you need to supervise all of them.


Both AP and FSD have been exceeded by offerings from GM and Mercedes.

That's just flat out false.

Neither does anything useful on city streets for example. Or even non-divided highways with traffic controls. (you can't even activate either system except on specific, pre-approved, roads)

Neither navigate highway interchanges or adjust lanes to follow a route (Mercedes system won't change lanes automatically at all- GMs only recently got any lane change capabilities at all and only on the newest cars)

Most cars that have been sold with GMs system don't do anything more than basic for free autopilot other than allow you to keep your hands off the wheel, but it's not free on GMs- and again they won't even do THAT except on pre-mapped/approved roads.


Tesla is stuck in a technological dead-end, while Mercedes and MobilEye beat them to L3:

Up to 37 mph. On only specific roads. Only in a single lane. Only with a car in front to follow. Only in 2 US states.

But otherwise, sure- they got to L3 first.
 
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I'm a car guy - the M3P was the ONLY Tesla choice - and at close to $50k for a discounted inventory M3P - it really is a no brainer.

I enjoy the handling of my M3P) also - its 90-95% of my stock 2006 911 Cabrio I sold in January 2023. Its not a GT3 but you can buy 4 of them and insure it for 8 years with the savings. The handling 'improvment with the 20" pirelli's is significant vs the 18" stock wheels - I can feel it having driven my neighbors bone stock M3.

Acceleration is crisp - the accel is much better than my 911 to about 75 or so - and usually thats all you need. Plus - in a blue garden variety Tesla you don't attract as much police attention coming off a light smartly as you do in a 911 even though I can accelerate faster . . . .
 
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