Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Toyota bets big on Fuel Cell Vehicles

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
#81
gameon said:
I am surprised that Honda is quiet on EV front and Fuel cell. They have good pilot program for CNG but not making much noise about fuel cell.

EV has one issue that if you don't have charging facility at home (people who lease and rent or own condo where association don't allow the installation)
Click to expand...

If Gen 3 hits target I'd suggest that the condo/HOA problem will disappear very rapidly as demand increases. The retrofitting won't be cheap, but it won't be prohibitively expensive either. At that point there will be excellent opportunities for companies that can install large shared charger units with sufficiently accurate metering.

The real problem will be on-street parking, which will likely need to be done street by street. That shouldn't be a problem, but there's potential for corruption.
 
#82
Morgan Stanley notes
'focus by many OEMs from EVs to hydrogen fuel cells (FCEVs) we believe in part to slow down the regulatory expectations on EVs'

my translation
Toyota, Honda ,Hyundai don't like EVs and are pushing Hydrogen vehicles to so disrupt and slow down CARB etc.
 
#83
renim said:
Morgan Stanley notes
'focus by many OEMs from EVs to hydrogen fuel cells (FCEVs) we believe in part to slow down the regulatory expectations on EVs'

my translation
Toyota, Honda ,Hyundai don't like EVs and are pushing Hydrogen vehicles to so disrupt and slow down CARB etc.
Click to expand...


More proposed changes to promote hydrogen over battery electric:

It has been proposed to reduce the CA BEV rebate to $2000 (from the current $2500) for Fiscal Year 2014-2015, which starts on July 1, 2014.

CA ARB will consider the funding plan on June 26. More info here

AQIP Funding Plans

The wait list gets paid the existing $2,500 (p34) before it drops to $2000 for the rebate
FCEVs rebate to start at $5,000 (p37,38)
Rejected options such as income and msrp are on page 38

The staff (CARB) is proposing to limit lifetime rebates to two for individuals, retroactive. However, they're also proposing an exemption for anyone who wants to upgrade to an FCEV but has otherwise maxed out their rebates (pg. 39). Also, as a contingency measure to keep from running out of money, they suggest giving the Executive Officer "the ability to reduce or eliminate rebates for some PHEVs based on all-electric range, if necessary, to help align expected demand with remaining budgetary constraints" (pg. 40).

And, of course, the most CARB-ZEV credits for hydrogen:

Type V - 300+ miles range "hydrogen" ---- Credit per vehicle: 9**
Type V - 300+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 7
Type IV - 200+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 5
Type III - 100+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 4
Type III - 200+ miles range -------------- Credit per vehicle: 4
Type II - 100+ miles range --------------- Credit per vehicle: 3
Type I.5 - 75-100 miles range ----------- Credit per vehicle: 2.5
Type I - 50-75 miles range --------------- Credit per vehicle: 2

** hydrogen credit at 9 per vehicle for model years 2015-2017 only
 
Last edited:
#84
This really is a joke. EVs are actually gaining traction in the market and they want to support 'the next thing' that may or may not have a future. We know EVs are likely to catch on but nothing is a given. Seems to me if the government is going to spend money on this goal you'd at worst treat them evenly and see what wins and at best favor EVs.
 
#86
Reykjavik said:
I think the CARB credits should require clean sourcing of hydrogen. Do that, and the vehicles will be on roughly even footing, and EVs will dominate.
Click to expand...
Is it clean sourcing of hydrogen if you take solar generated electricity that could otherwise have been put onto the grid and use it to create hydrogen?

I see that as a dirtier sourcing of hydrogen than just reforming natural gas.

I'm starting to feel like a broken record on TMC by arguing that we should stop conflating electricity generation with electricity consumption. Electricity is easily transported and sold. I have solar and I have an electric car, but those are completely independent decisions, and I'd never say that my car runs on solar power. My solar panels power my and my neighbors' air conditioners during the day while the local power plant powers my car at night.

Similarly, if you use clean electricity to split water, you're not using that clean electricity to power the grid, and that's a waste, because steam reforming natural gas to hydrogen is much more efficient than burning natural gas to turn a turbine that creates electricity that electrolyzes water.

If you're suggesting that manufacturers of hydrogen vehicles should be required to add a certain amount of solar power to the grid for every car that they sell I might be able to agree with you. or if every producer of hydrogen were required to put a certain amount of energy onto the grid for every kg of hydrogen sold.

I just hate to think that anyone would be encouraging electrolysis of water to create hydrogen.
 
#87
I don't even like if it uses natural gas. You get that from fracking and that process creates methane which is even worse than CO2, so I don't see how saying it's cleaner with natural gas is going to work. That's the whole reason to get off ICE cars, not just to move the process of destroying the climate from one area to another. It's freaking simple, solar + EV. Why as a civilization we don't spread the technology we now have to get power from the thing that heats our plant and put it to good use is beyond me. It feels like we are living in that movie, Idiocracy. And whatever natural gas we have already can be the stepping stone to get off coal plants.

"It's not rocket science."

polls_26578_2202_965725_answer_5_xlarge.jpeg
 
Last edited:
#88
ggies07 said:
I don't even like if it uses natural gas. You get that from fracking and that process creates methane which is even worse than CO2, so I don't see how saying it's cleaner with natural gas is going to work. That's the whole reason to get off ICE cars, not just to move the process of destroying the climate from one area to another. It's freaking simple, solar + EV.
Click to expand...

Mega agree with you Dittos.
 
#89
ggies07 said:
I don't even like if it uses natural gas. You get that from fracking and that process creates methane which is even worse than CO2, so I don't see how saying it's cleaner with natural gas is going to work. That's the whole reason to get off ICE cars, not just to move the process of destroying the climate from one area to another. It's freaking simple, solar + EV. Why as a civilization we don't spread the technology we now have to get power from the thing that heats our plant and put it to good use is beyond me. It feels like we are living in that movie, Idiocracy. And whatever natural gas we have already can be the stepping stone to get off coal plants.

"It's not rocket science."

View attachment 51461
Click to expand...

My understanding is that the Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles coming out in the next year or two emit about as much carbon as a Prius if their Hydrogen comes from natural gas.
A Prius is better than the average car on the road, so one can choose whether that's "good" or "bad". (my assessment is "pointless").

My point, though, is that it's far worse if that Hydrogen comes from electrolysis.

Either way, EV emissions are way better.
I own an EV.
 
#90
ItsNotAboutTheMoney said:
The real problem will be on-street parking, which will likely need to be done street by street. That shouldn't be a problem, but there's potential for corruption.
Click to expand...

I don't see a problem at all. Add plugs to existing parking meters/create parking meters with plugs and replace - parking spots already exist, the need to 'pay to park' already exists - combine the two and voila. Add them as required and they pay for themselves in not time. People choose blue button to just pay to park, people choose the green button to pay to park and recharge. Simple.
 
#91
derekt75 said:
My understanding is that the Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles coming out in the next year or two emit about as much carbon as a Prius if their Hydrogen comes from natural gas.
Click to expand...

Your understanding is incorrect.

The Hyundai Tuscon FCEV produces as much carbon as a Santa FE V6 and the Toyota FCEV produces as much carbon as a Camry V6.

And the Santa Fe and Camry are bigger/quicker cars.
 
#92
Krugerrand said:
I don't see a problem at all. Add plugs to existing parking meters/create parking meters with plugs and replace - parking spots already exist, the need to 'pay to park' already exists - combine the two and voila. Add them as required and they pay for themselves in not time. People choose blue button to just pay to park, people choose the green button to pay to park and recharge. Simple.
Click to expand...

Urban commercial districts won't be a problem. It's dense urban residential on-street parking that would be a problem.
 
#93
RobStark said:
Your understanding is incorrect.

The Hyundai Tuscon FCEV produces as much carbon as a Santa FE V6 and the Toyota FCEV produces as much carbon as a Camry V6.

And the Santa Fe and Camry are bigger/quicker cars.
Click to expand...
The Tuscon FCEV is rated at 50 miles / kg. The Santa FE V6 is rated at 21 mpg combined. Can you you show how 1 gallon of gas = 2.4 kg H2 in terms of CO2 emissions when reformed from natural gas?

I was under the assumption that steam reforming of H2 from natural gas was somewhere around 60-70% efficient, burning a gallon of gas releases about 19 lbs/CO2 and a burning a therm of natural gas releases around 13-14 lbs/CO2.
 
#94
ItsNotAboutTheMoney said:
Urban commercial districts won't be a problem. It's dense urban residential on-street parking that would be a problem.
Click to expand...

How is that a problem?

Solution #1: Fill up before you head for home.
Solution #2: Add charging meters to existing urban street parking. Town can charge a fee to pay for the meters, installation and upkeep, or communities can pool funds and do it themselves...
 
#96
#97
Takumi said:
Did not read the article, but if you replace the rationalizations with battery instead of FC, does FC still beat battery? If not, then ???
Click to expand...
it's kind of hard to imagine that using electricity to create hydrogen and then turning it back into electricity will ever be more efficient due to the energy conversion loss that happens when changing electricity into gas and back again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CarlK
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

wdolson
  • Article
Toyota Ammonia Engine
Replies
47
Views
5K
TSLA Investor Discussions
DrChaos
D
W
UK Buying Advice | Model 3 or ?
Replies
2
Views
418
Model 3: Ordering, Production, Delivery
weBrandy
W
P
Washington State Vehicle Sales - December 2023
Replies
2
Views
609
Northwest
Poiu
P
D
Hit a rock on the road with my MYLR
Replies
17
Views
869
Model Y
Iron
Iron
P
Washington State Vehicle and EV adoption - October 2023
Replies
5
Views
1K
Northwest
EARL99208
EARL99208
Top
Back
Blog
New
Forum list
Marketplace
Menu