Toyota Bz4X

[Vostok]

More grist for the mill…

Toyota's EV sales continue lagging in the US as Hyundai and Kia plow ahead

Toyota’s EV sales were up 9% in the first three months of 2024, but only 1,897 Toyota electric vehicles were...

electrek.co

Seems like Toyota USA has a similar attitude to Toyota Australia.

 

[Sturty]

My journey to EV ownership started approximately two years ago, when I started my current job earning quite a bit more $ than I used to earn, I decided I wanted a bigger car. I have a turbo Hyundai i30 which runs really nicely, is nice and zippy and has been faultless in the now five years I've had it, but ultimately is small.

It was early 2022. I had decided that I wanted my next car to be a Rav 4 Hybrid. It was the benchmark for medium SUVs at the time in my opinion, the best hybrid option on the market. However, the two year delay on Rav 4 deliveries paused that train of thought, we decided to see what happened with the waits - two years isa long time. In that time Toyota released the long awaited bz4x and my excitement went into the bin. Add to that Toyota's quite backward EV sentiment and we are where we are.

In the meantime, Australia got the Model Y. Tesla continues the lead the way on the EV front. BYD don't yet have a comparible offering to that of the Model Y, and thus just like that Toyota is bleeding customers who want to go green and had that positive association with their brand and have absolutely wasted their massive advantages from the hybrid era.

 

[cwerdna]

I counted the other day and Toyota has over 75 distinct passenger car models across the world. To electrify each one of these in the next 2-3 years, especially when the same models are built in several countries around the world - you are looking at retooling 75+ production lines concurrently, which means they will be completely offline for a while.

I can't speak to your 75 distinct models but you're making the incorrect assumption that each line only builds one model. That's not true. Japanese (and many other automakers) has flexible lines that build multiple models on the same line. I've posted about this before as I went I've been on many auto factory tours.

See my posts below:
Where is the Prius made? from 2006
How 2010 Prius is made in Tsutsimi plant - Videos - from 2009 referring to the above tour
what factory/plant for right hand drive z350 - MY350Z.COM - Nissan 350Z and 370Z Forum Discussion - Mazda plant tour I went on in 2001 and Nissan in 03
Assembly Line Flexibility Sets Japanese Apart is from 1990:
"Not only can Mazda build four, five or even six different cars on the same assembly line, it can also have two or three of those complicated lines running inside the same factory. Without sacrificing quality.

That is unheard of in Detroit, yet it is commonplace in Japan, where the scarcity of available land long ago forced manufacturers to find ways to consolidate their operations. For Japan, that flexibility played a critical role in helping its auto industry retain its competitive edge over America’s Big Three throughout the 1980s."

At the very beginning when Leaf was only coming out of Oppama, Japan (before production began in the US (1st US built ones were model year '13) and the UK),

was published. From ~2:41, you can see a mix of models on the same line and it's mentioned it's built on the same line as ICEVs.

 

[kmsyd777]

I can't speak to your 75 distinct models but you're making the incorrect assumption that each line only builds one model. That's not true. Japanese (and many other automakers) has flexible lines that build multiple models on the same line. I've posted about this before as I went I've been on many auto factory tours.

See my posts below:
Where is the Prius made? from 2006
How 2010 Prius is made in Tsutsimi plant - Videos - from 2009 referring to the above tour
what factory/plant for right hand drive z350 - MY350Z.COM - Nissan 350Z and 370Z Forum Discussion - Mazda plant tour I went on in 2001 and Nissan in 03
Assembly Line Flexibility Sets Japanese Apart is from 1990:
"Not only can Mazda build four, five or even six different cars on the same assembly line, it can also have two or three of those complicated lines running inside the same factory. Without sacrificing quality.

That is unheard of in Detroit, yet it is commonplace in Japan, where the scarcity of available land long ago forced manufacturers to find ways to consolidate their operations. For Japan, that flexibility played a critical role in helping its auto industry retain its competitive edge over America’s Big Three throughout the 1980s."

At the very beginning when Leaf was only coming out of Oppama, Japan (before production began in the US (1st US built ones were model year '13) and the UK),

was published. From ~2:41, you can see a mix of models on the same line and it's mentioned it's built on the same line as ICEVs.

ok so not 75 then (I might be wrong about that as I'm not an expert but just an observer here) but conservatively 30+ production lines? That's still a mammoth ask, don't you think?

 

[cwerdna]

thus just like that Toyota is bleeding customers who want to go green and had that positive association with their brand and have absolutely wasted their massive advantages from the hybrid era.

Toyota's still doing fine as I still posted at The demise of the OEMs.

 

[cwerdna]

ok so not 75 then (I might be wrong about that as I'm not an expert but just an observer here) but conservatively 30+ production lines? That's still a mammoth ask, don't you think?

I don't know. I've not counted. You can try to make guesses based upon the final assembly sites listed at Global Operations | Facilities | Profile | Company | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website + all the overseas (outside Japan) ones.

Not all of those plants will end up producing BEVs. Many markets have a virtually nil EV market (esp those in poorer countries but even Japan is that way, see Who can catch Tesla ? They seem to be experiencing exponential growth…..). For where it doesn't make sense to produce BEVs, I suspect they'd be imported, just like in the US plenty of BEVs are not assembled in the US.

 

[kmsyd777]

87% of US Tesla drivers say they'll buy another Tesla

Tesla maintains an 87% brand retention rate, with Lexus (67%) and Toyota (54%) trailing, according to a new Bloomberg Intelligence survey.

electrek.co

 

[dronus]

87% of US Tesla drivers say they'll buy another Tesla

Tesla maintains an 87% brand retention rate, with Lexus (67%) and Toyota (54%) trailing, according to a new Bloomberg Intelligence survey.

electrek.co

There are certainly a lot of them getting around in the US.

It’s interesting that Tesla don’t advertise and the only time you see the brand in the media is when some work experience kid spent their first day writing a clickbait story they learnt how to compose in TAFE the week before; trying to bag some aspect of Tesla they they don’t understand and never will because they don’t even know someone who owns a Tesla. I saw someone bagging that Elon hasn’t massed produced taxi/robots/space ships. This guy thought he was entitled to demand answers why these things are not available right now.
One of the comments asked him what he has done in any of these ventures apart from complain about it, and to maybe redirect his anger to the government for not doing it and leaving it to a private copany to do.

All the other brands advertise on multiple media platforms. They sponsor media outlets and sporting teams that then gains advertising revenue. When you look hard enough, Toyota is splashed everywhere… sporting teams, huuuge show rooms, stupid tv adverts you name it. It’s everywhere.

That’s the old school way of doing it, and old school is what they do best.

Keep telling me something I’ll ask more questions and then ignore it. I don’t play that game.

Make a good product and it will speak for itself and people will empower themself to align with the brand once they experience it ; rather than being told something is good over and over and over, and then relying on confirmation bias from other brain washed people.. sooner or later they might wake up and realise they:

1. Don’t need a dual cab 4wd ute
2. Don’t need a huge suv, and
3. Can make decisions for themself without the primary consideration in regards to what the Jones are doing.. because statistically one day the Jones might buy a BEV and then the dream crumbles.

I’m very new to the ev game but I’m hooked and love every second I get to spend in my m3. I think rusted on brand loyalists might or might not change. Some love the egoic feeling of control as they rev their diesel engine making loud exhaust sounds and associated smoke while they change gears with one hand and suck on a durrie with the other. Do whatever makes you happy but if pack inclusion is your fetish, keep an eye on the number of people changing packs, it’s happening

That padded out my afternoon nicely.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

Don’t need a dual cab 4wd ute

I need a dual cab 4wd ute. And so do many others.

But what I don't need is to also use it to commute to work every day.
I now have 2 vehicles, a dual cab 4wd ute, and a Tesla.

I do the same number of km per year, but now I pay double insurance and double registration (why?*).
I no longer burn diesel when I don't have to. I do burn diesel, but now only when I have to.

* There is a good argument for the "right vehicle for the right job".
Unfortunately, owning multiple vehicles to achieve that carries a penalty. So the economic answer is to own the biggest and dirtiest vehicle you need, even though it might be too big and too dirty 95% of the time.

 

[dronus]

I need a dual cab 4wd ute. And so do many others.

But what I don't need is to also use it to commute to work every day.
I now have 2 vehicles, a dual cab 4wd ute, and a Tesla.

I do the same number of km per year, but now I pay double insurance and double registration (why?).
I no longer burn diesel when I don't have to. I do burn diesel, but now only when I have to.

Yeah cool, sorry I didn’t mean to infer that no one needs them, they are essential for people that do.
I was moreso talking about people in the cities who are influenced that they need them to drive around city streets etc not needing to tow or carry anything, just because they are “popular”.. But if it makes them happy that’s ok too, just don’t park next to me at the shops haha.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

Yeah cool, sorry I didn’t mean to infer that no one needs them, they are essential for people that do.
I was moreso talking about people in the cities who are influenced that they need them to drive around city streets etc not needing to tow or carry anything, just because they are “popular”.. But if it makes them happy that’s ok too, just don’t park next to me at the shops haha.

Yeah, all good... I don't live in the city so I guess I don't see that demographic.

Where I live, people buy the car they need... there isn't much "look at me" factor.

 

[Vostok]

I need a dual cab 4wd ute. And so do many others.

What cheeses me off (apart from the road-and-sightline blocking nature of these vehicles in the city) is dual-cab utes getting concessional FBT treatment as “commercial vehicles” and then seemingly not being used for any remotely commercial purpose. I’ve seen too many dual-cab utes with no company livery on the sides that look like they’ve barely left the showroom and with scratch-free trays that have never seen a power tool or bit of timber in their life. There must be a lot of false log books out there documenting the “minimal” private use of these vehicles .

When tradies turn up to work on houses in my street, they turn up in banged-up vans and battered single-cab utes with proper aluminium trays that have been smashed to within an inch of their lives. I don’t see them turning up in pristine dual-cab utes .

If someone has used their own coin to pay full price for one then… OK… (but I still dislike them).

Oh boy this is way off topic and I’ve just given @meloccom a headache… sorry.

 

[aegidius]

But people need utes. Won't someone think of the struggling motorists and their stranded ABN's? How else are they going to take advantage of the FBT tax concessions?

 

[dronus]

But people need utes. Won't someone think of the struggling motorists and their stranded ABN's? How else are they going to take advantage of the FBT tax concessions?

I’m not sure if they still do it, but Ni$$an dealerships used to help people register ABNs so they could buy Navaras.

Toyota would have to pay me to take a Bz4x and even then I’d try and sell it before taking delivery haha.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

If someone has used their own coin to pay full price for one then… OK

Ahh, then you'll be please to know I did. And it's dirty. And it doesn't drive in the city. It drives on the roads that the Tesla can't, towing and carrying things that the Tesla can't. I fully agree with you on the fact that there are more utes on the roads than there needs to be purely due to Government policy. Mine's not one of them... Cheers!

I recently got an email from Subaru saying I can book a test drive of their version of the Bz4X, the Solterra, so it also seems to have arrived in the country.

 

[Nevyn72]

Ahh, then you'll be please to know I did. And it's dirty. And it doesn't drive in the city. It drives on the roads that the Tesla can't, towing and carrying things that the Tesla can't. I fully agree with you on the fact that there are more utes on the roads than there needs to be purely due to Government policy. Mine's not one of them... Cheers!

I'm exactly the same, paid full freight for a Ranger (not dual-cab) because I needed it's capabilities to shift building materials and waste plus 4WD for the same on my parents' rural property.

That being said the vast majority of my driving is in the Tesla.

I dream of the day when I can get a single EV to replace both vehicles...
Something BZ4X sized with a decent towing capacity would be my ideal, maybe in a few years.
The Rivian R2/R3 would probably do it!

 

[cwerdna]

I can't speak to your 75 distinct models but you're making the incorrect assumption that each line only builds one model. That's not true. Japanese (and many other automakers) has flexible lines that build multiple models on the same line. I've posted about this before as I went I've been on many auto factory tours.

See my posts below:
Where is the Prius made? from 2006
How 2010 Prius is made in Tsutsimi plant - Videos - from 2009 referring to the above tour
what factory/plant for right hand drive z350 - MY350Z.COM - Nissan 350Z and 370Z Forum Discussion - Mazda plant tour I went on in 2001 and Nissan in 03
Assembly Line Flexibility Sets Japanese Apart is from 1990:
"Not only can Mazda build four, five or even six different cars on the same assembly line, it can also have two or three of those complicated lines running inside the same factory. Without sacrificing quality.

That is unheard of in Detroit, yet it is commonplace in Japan, where the scarcity of available land long ago forced manufacturers to find ways to consolidate their operations. For Japan, that flexibility played a critical role in helping its auto industry retain its competitive edge over America’s Big Three throughout the 1980s."

At the very beginning when Leaf was only coming out of Oppama, Japan (before production began in the US (1st US built ones were model year '13) and the UK),

was published. From ~2:41, you can see a mix of models on the same line and it's mentioned it's built on the same line as ICEVs.

On this note, while I was digging around, I found this from 2002 about their "GBL" (Global Body Line) which is an improvement from "FBL" (Flexible Body Line): Toyota Adopts New Flexible Assembly System.

"To add salt to the wounds of auto makers that still see Toyota's old FBL as the bogey, Don Jackson, vice president-manufacturing for TMMK, calls the outgoing process “antique” in comparison with GBL.
...
(FBL-equipped plants could handle as many as five different models...

GBL-ready plants now can build as many as eight, rather than five with the FBL system.
...
Even with the ability to produce eight different models, there is a limit to GBL's flexibility. Once pressed, engineers admit that not everything Toyota makes, from Vitz to Land Cruiser, can be produced on a single GBL line. There are two sizes, one for small and medium vehicles, one to accommodate anything larger."

 

[dronus]

On this note, while I was digging around, I found this from 2002 about their "GBL" (Global Body Line) which is an improvement from "FBL" (Flexible Body Line): Toyota Adopts New Flexible Assembly System.

"To add salt to the wounds of auto makers that still see Toyota's old FBL as the bogey, Don Jackson, vice president-manufacturing for TMMK, calls the outgoing process “antique” in comparison with GBL.
...
(FBL-equipped plants could handle as many as five different models...

GBL-ready plants now can build as many as eight, rather than five with the FBL system.
...
Even with the ability to produce eight different models, there is a limit to GBL's flexibility. Once pressed, engineers admit that not everything Toyota makes, from Vitz to Land Cruiser, can be produced on a single GBL line. There are two sizes, one for small and medium vehicles, one to accommodate anything larger."

They would really need to keep an eye on QA with so many models going down the line. The production line human aspect of it is worth considering.

 

[kmsyd777]

https://insideevs.com/news/708375/toyota-mirai-hydrogen-stations-close/ - Toyota's bet on Hydrogen isn't going the way they expected...

 

[Jules22]

https://insideevs.com/news/708375/toyota-mirai-hydrogen-stations-close/ - Toyota's bet on Hydrogen isn't going the way they expected...

I doubt anyone here is surprised