I counted the other day and Toyota has over 75 distinct passenger car models across the world. To electrify each one of these in the next 2-3 years, especially when the same models are built in several countries around the world - you are looking at retooling 75+ production lines concurrently, which means they will be completely offline for a while. That needs a huge amount of motivation, medium term pain resilience, $$$$ billions, possibly government grants, huge amount of change management (in terms of re-skilling the existing workers or letting go of existing and hiring new or a mix of both)... it'll be hard to see Toyota or any other large auto manufacturer anytime soon...
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Toyota Bz4X
- Thread starter Vostok
- Start date
Like most large manufacturers, Toyota has switched to using common platforms from which they build a range of different vehicles. So far they have only one electrified platform that is uses in the BZ4X and Lexus RX (EV) but strangely not the Mirai which is built on the Camry platform.
They will probably make the same mistake as the rest of the legacy car industry and either modify existing platforms to accept BEV versions or create new platforms that can support both BEV and ICE versions. In both cases the compromise causes efficiency loss and is one of the reasons Tesla has such an advantage.
If it was my decision, I would continue to use the existing platforms for new ICEs going forward and build a new BEV platform for each of the existing platforms, it may result in some parts and style differences between the same model ICE and BEV but the BEVs will be better and more efficient and the ICEs and their platform can be dropped in due course as sales wane.
If it was my decision, I would continue to use the existing platforms for new ICEs going forward and build a new BEV platform for each of the existing platforms, it may result in some parts and style differences between the same model ICE and BEV but the BEVs will be better and more efficient and the ICEs and their platform can be dropped in due course as sales wane.
I was watching a review of a new BEV the other day on YouTube, yet the rear seat floor area had a transmission tunnel. Hmm I wonder if they are just using someone else’s ICE cockpit / platform and bolting their stuff to it..
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At Everything Electric I was stunned by the number of ‘new’ EVs that had transmission tunnels in the rear. WTF? There were probably more that had them than the number that did not. I should have written a full list of those which had them and those which didn’t.
Even the Genesis GV60 had a slightly raised bump in the middle of the rear floor - maybe 15-20 mm. Who knows what’s immediately under there, but why would you decide to have a bump in the rear that small, rather than completely eliminate it?
Maximillan
Member
As anyone who has worked in corporate IT will attest, legacy tech and thinking is hard to kill.
Zoltrix77
Member
A Porsche Taycan has a transmission tunnel too. However, its not what you think. The area is actually where battery's/cells are not occuping. Unlike the rear of a Model 3 where your knees are around your ears
Max Spaghetti
Member
Toyota Bz4X spec sheet says 71.4 kWh.
Other specs I noticed while looking this up:
- the AWD version is only 160kW vs 150kW for 2WD (which is front wheel drive not rear wheel drive). So unlike Tesla, the AWD doesn't get you a sportier vehicle, just better traction.
- the AWD version is symmetrical AWD (80kW front and rear) - I'm sure this is Subaru's influence, as this has always been one of their selling points. They are PM Synchronous motors front and rear, unlike Tesla AWD 3/Y which uses induction in the front, and only when power required or slippage.
- while the battery chemistry is not specified, the voltage per cell is listed as 3.7V, which likely makes it a nickel-based chemistry, not LFP (which is usually quoted as around 3.2V nominal). This means that charging to 100% is less advisable, with the associated impact on range depending on your driving profiles.
- DC max charging rate is 150kW (c.f. Tesla LFP is 170kW and Tesla NMC is 250kw I think). However charging rates above 150kW are rarely seen except in the low SOC for a few minutes, so this is unlikely to have an impact. Some vehicles on the market are much less.
- 2WD model has WLTP range of 436km - about 15% less than the 513km in the current Model 3 RWD, despite an extra 11kWh of battery underneath. (They also quote a WLTP efficiency of 169 Wh/km, but 169x436 = 73.7kWh, so maybe that battery capacity of 71.4 quoted earlier is actually the usable capacity with a 2.3kWh buffer on top, or I don't understand basic mathematics.) The Model 3 at 60.5/513=118 Wh/km. There is a huge difference in efficiency.
- AWD model has WLTP range of 411km - this is 23% less than the 533 km in the current Model Y LR (a fairer comparison), with a smaller battery underneath. (They also quote a WLTP efficiency of 181 Wh/km, but 181x411 = 74.4kWh, so my maths is getting even worse).
- DAB radio. No mention of AM/FM. Is this because it goes with saying that it has AM/FM, or does it really not have it? Tesla doesn't have an AM radio and that's annoying.
- 20" rims. Really? In a vehicle with 3 off-road modes?
- No spare... (sigh)
- Ground clearance: 2WD/AWD: 182/212 mm (c.f. Model 3/Y: 140/167 mm) - finally a win! 45mm extra clearance for AWD vs MY. This will be something that is contributing to the lower efficiency, but at least the ground clearance is compatible with the SUV or soft roader intent of the vehicle.
Not many vehicles can out-do Tesla in range, and I wouldn't expect a vehicle that maintains the classic "appearance" of a RAV4/Forester to do so. The rule of thumb I have developed to convert WLTP to real-world highway driving in a southern-Australian winter is to knock off a third. So an AWD Bz4X real world range is closer to 275km (compared to my 2023 RWD Model 3 which does about 330km).
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Max Spaghetti
Member
Just to add a price comparison (drive-away to nearest $1K):
2WD:
$70K - Tesla Model Y RWD
$72K - Toyota BzFX 2WD
AWD:
$79K - Tesla Model Y LR (AWD)
$81K - Toyota BzFX AWD
Add the Subaru to the mix - it comes in higher and lower based on trim (AWD only):
$76K - Subaru Solterra AWD
$83K - Subaru Solterra AWD Touring
The Subaru Solterra AWD is the only one with 18" rims which are more suitable for soft roading (still no spare of course).
The recent Model Y price reduction has certainly put more price pressure on the Bizzy Forks.
2WD:
$70K - Tesla Model Y RWD
$72K - Toyota BzFX 2WD
AWD:
$79K - Tesla Model Y LR (AWD)
$81K - Toyota BzFX AWD
Add the Subaru to the mix - it comes in higher and lower based on trim (AWD only):
$76K - Subaru Solterra AWD
$83K - Subaru Solterra AWD Touring
The Subaru Solterra AWD is the only one with 18" rims which are more suitable for soft roading (still no spare of course).
The recent Model Y price reduction has certainly put more price pressure on the Bizzy Forks.
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Well the VP of Sales for Toyota Australia reckons that they are “impractical for the vast majority of Australian motorists” so it would seem you are right - not only are Toyota not trying, they are telling the “vast majority” of their potential customers to not buy them.
Incredible.
What will Toyota do when all the Barrys have bought a BZ4X?
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