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Trump pulls out of Paris climate deal

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Are you saying that because you have an inside source working at the highest levels of the Chinese government?
Or perhaps wishful thinking?

China is going to do what is best for China, and do not really care much for international law unless it is to their advantage. If you can find source that indicates otherwise, I'd love to hear it. All data sent from China about Chinese technology or environmental programs are official releases. Do not mistake China for a Western nation with a free press.
There are independent numbers gathered for business reasons. The IHS (UK based) numbers put PV forecast in China at 77GW for 2016. Note that IHS numbers are based on looking at the worldwide solar industry.
China to lead way in tenth consecutive year of global growth for PV demand - Renewable Energy Focus
The NEA (chinese government agency) numbers for 2016 were 77.42GW.
China's solar power capacity more than doubles in 2016

Sure, the government can lie if they want, but there are other numbers to look at even if they do (can be cross checked with production and global numbers).
 
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Hermann Scheer, the father of German renewable energy who started this global solar revolution, died in October of 2010(likely assassinated). In the three years leading up to his death, Germany had installed 1.9GW, 4.3GW, and 7.3GW of solar. The "feed in tariff" program guaranteed Germans a set 20 year rate of grid payback for excess solar power and by January 2011 was sitting at 28.74 EUR cents per kWH, nearly equal to their retail energy price. Large scale ground mounted received something like 21 cents.

Due to mile market saturation and payback rates drifting downward, 2011 was looking like it would come in much lower than 2010's install total of 7.3GW. But with Scheer out of the way, political pressure moved the German government to scale back feed in tariff rates aggressively. Rates were now set to drop significantly from 2012 onward. So what happened? The Germans installed over 3GW of solar in ONE MONTH in December of 2011 to get in under the favorable feed in rates.

The point is that solar is cheaper and more efficient, it will always win in the end. The more legacy interests push, the harder the market will push back. Personally, I think consumers getting screwed over in the short term will be helpful. People need to wake up to the realities around us and nonsense like leaving the Paris climate deal are helping engage them in the energy ecosystem. This will be a big summer for residential solar.
 
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Regarding Elon's tweet about possibly leaving the advisory council, I'll repeat basically what I tweeted there.

You leave when you are convinced staying has no value. Elon is almost convinced. It seems the decision on the Paris accord, should it be to pull out, is his tipping point in being convinced that staying really has no value.

I've seen some attacks from both sides about what he said, but I think his position is reasonable, and I don't think it was meant to apply pressure on Trump; it is just a response indicating that pulling out of the Paris accord would be enough to convince him that people like him are not providing any useful influence.
 
China is going to do what is best for China, and do not really care much for international law unless it is to their advantage. If you can find source that indicates otherwise, I'd love to hear it. All data sent from China about Chinese technology or environmental programs are official releases. Do not mistake China for a Western nation with a free press.
Yes, but china has the intelligence to KNOW that what is best for china is to start cleaning up the environment. We are giving the green energy sector and all it's potential profits to china, pursuing coal power like morons instead of leading the way to the future.
 
yet china and india have little obligations to reduce their polluting but moron leftists are strong on hyperbole and short on facts
Those "moron leftists" have been right about climate change for 40 years, while the genius republicans have gone with the conclusion that climate scientists are all involved in the worlds biggest conspiracy.
 
Regarding Elon's tweet about possibly leaving the advisory council, I'll repeat basically what I tweeted there.

You leave when you are convinced staying has no value. Elon is almost convinced. It seems the decision on the Paris accord, should it be to pull out, is his tipping point in being convinced that staying really has no value.

I've seen some attacks from both sides about what he said, but I think his position is reasonable, and I don't think it was meant to apply pressure on Trump; it is just a response indicating that pulling out of the Paris accord would be enough to convince him that people like him are not providing any useful influence.
I understand why musk would leave trump's council, I'm simply saying THREATENING to leave is going to have the opposite effect he hopes it will. He didn't consider trump's warped psychology and how an egomaniac responds to threats - by doing the opposite of what they're told.
 
Maybe they're worried about C02 AND nuclear disasters. Or did you miss fukushima?

I believe it's possible to have large scale safe nuclear power that would address much of the power plant emissions problems. However, I also believe the nuclear power industry has mostly failed in that regard and lost the confidence of the people, something that is probably going to be nearly impossible to get back now. Because of this, it's probably best to focus on solar and wind now, unless physicists and engineers really get cranking and have some huge near future advances on fusion development (though given how slow ITER is crawling ahead, I'm doubtful fusion will be ready anytime soon).
 
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Geez, Electoral votes...

btw: Trump carried a very high percentage of America’s counties, didn’t campaign in California & other Dem leaning states, Senatorial election was between two Democrats which gave Repubs no incentive to vote.....

but then again, it’s electoral votes.....our founding fathers were smart to not allow the “large” states to bully the rest of America. Believe it or not, most Americans don’t view California as a place to emulate.

Just amazing the number of folks not accepting the results and rationalizing.....

FWIW: any agreement that doesn’t have China & India significantly reducing their polluting footprint is foolish and it allows them an unfair advantage both economically and militarily.
Have to disagree Trump got a huge amount of free national media. Often his rallies were on TV live, including sometimes just empty podium waiting for him to start while other candidates were doing things. It was a national campaign. Also California and other blue states out west had polling places open when important EC states like PA, NC, MI were being called for Trump. No reason to vote if it was already over. You had other Blue states with such high margins that vote is naturally suppressed. Finally if no EC then Democratic candidates would also campaign more in high population Red states like Texas. Texas is more purple then California is.
 
Good advice. I'm still holding out hope. Trump has to look at his daughter, who reportedly is pushing him to stay, and his grand kids, whose future he is gambling with. That could sway him. Unlikely, but possible.
Why would you think he cares about his grand kids. Even on Mothers day he didnt visit his own son. Went golfing in another state.
 
Are you saying that because you have an inside source working at the highest levels of the Chinese government?
Or perhaps wishful thinking?

China is going to do what is best for China, and do not really care much for international law unless it is to their advantage. If you can find source that indicates otherwise, I'd love to hear it. All data sent from China about Chinese technology or environmental programs are official releases. Do not mistake China for a Western nation with a free press.


+1...spent almost a decade running a company in Asia. Most westerners equate their country’s norms and apply it to Asia but it just doesn’t match.

FWIW: America certainly is a Nationalistic nation but China is the equivalent, perhaps worse as a byproduct of Western Nations' historical brutalization of their country. Chinese stats are absolutely manipulated from the smallest to the largest companies and most certainly the Government (free speech...ha, even at HKG Cathay Pacific lounge the Government “listens/watches” online). I do give the Government credit for focusing on pollution but there is a Longgggg way to go.

Good WSJ opinion piece today: Paris Climate Discord
 
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Maybe they're worried about C02 AND nuclear disasters. Or did you miss fukushima?

It's sort of like saying you cannot make aircraft travel safe because there was 583 humans killed in a few seconds accidently (Tenerife), and 3,000 killed by deliberate actions. Plus thousands more over the years.

Airline travel used to be very dangerous. Technology improvements continues to mitigate that risk.

How safe would nuclear power be today if more resources were focused on safety for the last 40 years?

The bigger nuclear generators can push 6,000-8,000 MW continuous duty, or up to 70,000 GWh per year per site. That is equal 363 square miles of PV array. This is 20% larger than the entire city of New York.

For all the BLM/EPA worry about killing off species, where are you going to put that much array? I know, just steal more land out west and wreck it some more.
 
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NOTE: I am not against PV, or Wind generators. I'm just saying that if GHG are a serious concern, we have a super-technology in our grasp that is being underutilized due to exaggerated risks. Everything has risks. Putting solar on roofs is one of the most dangerous occupations in the energy field. People get seriously injured and die falling off roofs. So it is not without hazards itself.
 
It's sort of like saying you cannot make aircraft travel safe because there was 583 humans killed in a few seconds accidently (Tenerife), and 3,000 killed by deliberate actions. Plus thousands more over the years.

Airline travel used to be very dangerous. Technology improvements continues to mitigate that risk.

How safe would nuclear power be today if more resources were focused on safety for the last 40 years?

The bigger nuclear generators can push 6,000-8,000 MW continuous duty, or up to 70,000 GWh per year per site. That is equal 363 square miles of PV array. This is 20% larger than the entire city of New York.

For all the BLM/EPA worry about killing off species, where are you going to put that much array? I know, just steal more land out west and wreck it some more.
China is still expanding nuclear. The problem here is NIMBY. No one wants one built next to them. The people don't care how much technology there is, they hear about accidents happening and it scares them. In a country where public opinion matters, a large expansion of nuclear power is not going to happen.

The airplane analogy doesn't quite work because there aren't any practical alternatives, while there is with energy.

And in any regard, just because they don't pursue one solution doesn't mean the entire measure is invalid. That's just an excuse. Very similar to the argument of people who say EVs are pointless because electricity still has a certain percentage of fossil fuels (with the same people being opposed to making electricity cleaner by moving away from coal).
 
FYI:
from the WSJ editorials

President Trump and his advisers are debating whether to withdraw the U.S. from the Paris climate accord, and if he does the fury will be apocalyptic—start building arks for the catastrophic flood. The reality is that withdrawing is in America’s economic interest and won’t matter much to the climate.

President Obama signed the agreement last September, albeit by ducking the two-thirds majority vote in the Senate required under the Constitution for such national commitments. The pact includes a three-year process for withdrawal, which Mr. Trump could short-circuit by also pulling out of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.

Paris was supposed to address the failures of the 1997 Kyoto protocol, which Bill Clinton signed but George W. Bush refused to implement amid similar outrage. The Kyoto episode is instructive because the U.S. has since reduced emissions faster than much of Europe thanks to business innovation—namely, hydraulic fracturing that is replacing coal with natural gas.


While legally binding, Kyoto’s CO 2 emissions targets weren’t strictly enforced. European countries that pursued aggressive reductions were engaging in economic masochism. According to a 2014 Manhattan Institute study, the average cost of residential electricity in 2012 was 12 cents per kilowatt hour in the U.S. but an average 26 cents in the European Union and 35 cents in Germany. The average price of electricity in the EU soared 55% from 2005 to 2013.

Yet Germany’s emissions have increased in the last two years as more coal is burned to compensate for reduced nuclear energy and unreliable solar and wind power. Last year coal made up 40% of Germany’s power generation compared to 30% for renewables, while state subsidies to stabilize the electric grid have grown five-fold since 2012.

But the climate believers tried again in Paris, this time with goals that are supposedly voluntary. China and India offered benchmarks pegged to GDP growth, which means they can continue their current energy plans. China won’t even begin reducing emissions until 2030 and in the next five years it will use more coal.

President Obama, meanwhile, committed the U.S. to reducing emissions by between 26% and 28% below 2005 levels by 2025. This would require extreme changes in energy use. Even Mr. Obama’s bevy of anti-carbon regulations would get the U.S. to a mere 45% of its target.

Meeting the goals would require the Environmental Protection Agency to impose stringent emissions controls on vast stretches of the economy including steel production, farm soil management and enteric fermentation (i.e., cow flatulence). Don’t laugh—California’s Air Resources Board is issuing regulations to curb bovine burping to meet its climate goals.

Advocates in the White House for remaining in Paris claim the U.S. has the right to unilaterally reduce Mr. Obama’s emissions commitments. They say stay in and avoid the political meltdown while rewriting the U.S. targets.

But Article 4, paragraph 11 of the accord says “a party may at any time adjust its existing nationally determined contribution with a view to enhancing its level of ambition.” There is no comparable language permitting a reduction in national targets.

Rest assured that the Sierra Club and other greens will sue under the Section 115 “international air pollution” provision of the Clean Air Act to force the Trump Administration to enforce the Paris standards. The “voluntary” talk will vanish amid the hunt for judges to rule that Section 115 commands the U.S. to reduce emissions that “endanger” foreign countries if those countries reciprocate under Paris. After his experience with the travel ban, Mr. Trump should understand that legal danger.


***
The Big Con at the heart of Paris is that even its supporters concede that meeting all of its commitments won’t prevent more than a 0.17 degree Celsius increase in global temperatures by 2100, far less than the two degrees that is supposedly needed to avert climate doom.

It’s also rich for Europeans to complain about the U.S. abdicating climate leadership after their regulators looked the other way as auto makers, notably Volkswagen , cheated on emissions tests. This allowed Europeans to claim they were meeting their green goals without harming the competitiveness of their auto makers. The EPA had to shame the EU into investigating the subterfuge.

The U.S. legal culture will insist on carbon compliance even if Europe and China cheat. Even if Mr. Trump would succeed in rewriting U.S. emissions targets, his predecessor could ratchet them back up. That possibility might deter some companies from investing in long-term fossil-fuel production.

The simplest decision is to make a clean break from Paris. But if Mr. Trump doesn’t want to take the political heat for withdrawing on his own, here’s a compromise: Atone for Mr. Obama’s dereliction and submit Paris to the Senate for approval as a treaty. Then we can see whether anticarbon virtue-signaling beats real-world economic costs for Democrats from energy states like Heidi Heitkamp (North Dakota), Joe Manchin (West Virginia) and Joe Donnelly (Indiana).

Appeared in the June 1, 2017, print edition.









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BUSINESS WORLD
Social Media CEOs in the Dock


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The Birth of American Nationalism


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Paris Climate Discord
U.S. emissions targets could trap Trump if he stays in the accord.


BN-TR292_1paris_GR_20170531173428.jpg


The dome of the US Capitol is seen behind the smokestacks of the Capitol Power Plant PHOTO: EUROPEAN PRESSPHOTO AGENCY
May 31, 2017 7:14 p.m. ET
434 COMMENTS

President Trump and his advisers are debating whether to withdraw the U.S. from the Paris climate accord, and if he does the fury will be apocalyptic—start building arks for the catastrophic flood. The reality is that withdrawing is in America’s economic interest and won’t matter much to the climate.

President Obama signed the agreement last September, albeit by ducking the two-thirds majority vote in the Senate required under the Constitution for such national commitments. The pact includes a three-year process for withdrawal, which Mr. Trump could short-circuit by also pulling out of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.

Paris was supposed to address the failures of the 1997 Kyoto protocol, which Bill Clinton signed but George W. Bush refused to implement amid similar outrage. The Kyoto episode is instructive because the U.S. has since reduced emissions faster than much of Europe thanks to business innovation—namely, hydraulic fracturing that is replacing coal with natural gas.


While legally binding, Kyoto’s CO 2 emissions targets weren’t strictly enforced. European countries that pursued aggressive reductions were engaging in economic masochism. According to a 2014 Manhattan Institute study, the average cost of residential electricity in 2012 was 12 cents per kilowatt hour in the U.S. but an average 26 cents in the European Union and 35 cents in Germany. The average price of electricity in the EU soared 55% from 2005 to 2013.

Yet Germany’s emissions have increased in the last two years as more coal is burned to compensate for reduced nuclear energy and unreliable solar and wind power. Last year coal made up 40% of Germany’s power generation compared to 30% for renewables, while state subsidies to stabilize the electric grid have grown five-fold since 2012.

But the climate believers tried again in Paris, this time with goals that are supposedly voluntary. China and India offered benchmarks pegged to GDP growth, which means they can continue their current energy plans. China won’t even begin reducing emissions until 2030 and in the next five years it will use more coal.

President Obama, meanwhile, committed the U.S. to reducing emissions by between 26% and 28% below 2005 levels by 2025. This would require extreme changes in energy use. Even Mr. Obama’s bevy of anti-carbon regulations would get the U.S. to a mere 45% of its target.

Meeting the goals would require the Environmental Protection Agency to impose stringent emissions controls on vast stretches of the economy including steel production, farm soil management and enteric fermentation (i.e., cow flatulence). Don’t laugh—California’s Air Resources Board is issuing regulations to curb bovine burping to meet its climate goals.

Advocates in the White House for remaining in Paris claim the U.S. has the right to unilaterally reduce Mr. Obama’s emissions commitments. They say stay in and avoid the political meltdown while rewriting the U.S. targets.

But Article 4, paragraph 11 of the accord says “a party may at any time adjust its existing nationally determined contribution with a view to enhancing its level of ambition.” There is no comparable language permitting a reduction in national targets.

Rest assured that the Sierra Club and other greens will sue under the Section 115 “international air pollution” provision of the Clean Air Act to force the Trump Administration to enforce the Paris standards. The “voluntary” talk will vanish amid the hunt for judges to rule that Section 115 commands the U.S. to reduce emissions that “endanger” foreign countries if those countries reciprocate under Paris. After his experience with the travel ban, Mr. Trump should understand that legal danger.


***
The Big Con at the heart of Paris is that even its supporters concede that meeting all of its commitments won’t prevent more than a 0.17 degree Celsius increase in global temperatures by 2100, far less than the two degrees that is supposedly needed to avert climate doom.

It’s also rich for Europeans to complain about the U.S. abdicating climate leadership after their regulators looked the other way as auto makers, notably Volkswagen , cheated on emissions tests. This allowed Europeans to claim they were meeting their green goals without harming the competitiveness of their auto makers. The EPA had to shame the EU into investigating the subterfuge.

The U.S. legal culture will insist on carbon compliance even if Europe and China cheat. Even if Mr. Trump would succeed in rewriting U.S. emissions targets, his predecessor could ratchet them back up. That possibility might deter some companies from investing in long-term fossil-fuel production.

The simplest decision is to make a clean break from Paris. But if Mr. Trump doesn’t want to take the political heat for withdrawing on his own, here’s a compromise: Atone for Mr. Obama’s dereliction and submit Paris to the Senate for approval as a treaty. Then we can see whether anticarbon virtue-signaling beats real-world economic costs for Democrats from energy states like Heidi Heitkamp (North Dakota), Joe Manchin (West Virginia) and Joe Donnelly (Indiana).

Appeared in the June 1, 2017, print edition.
+1...spent almost a decade running a company in Asia. Most westerners equate their country’s norms and apply it to Asia but it just doesn’t match.

FWIW: America certainly is a Nationalistic nation but China is the equivalent, perhaps worse as a byproduct of Western Nations' historical brutalization of their country. Chinese stats are absolutely manipulated from the smallest to the largest companies and most certainly the Government (free speech...ha, even at HKG Cathay Pacific lounge the Government “listens/watches” online). I do give the Government credit for focusing on pollution but there is a Longgggg way to go.

Good WSJ opinion piece today: Paris Climate Discord
 
yet china and india have little obligations to reduce their polluting but moron leftists are strong on hyperbole and short on facts
The "moron leftists" have the worlds scientists on their side. The "moron leftists" have every conservative political party on the planet except the United States Republican Party on their side. The "moron leftists" even have Exxon and Chevron saying we should stay in the agreement. What does the US GOP have on their side? They have the Coal Industry, Koch Brothers, and evangelical religious leaders that believe God will step in before we could screw up the world to much.
 
NOTE: I am not against PV, or Wind generators. I'm just saying that if GHG are a serious concern, we have a super-technology in our grasp that is being underutilized due to exaggerated risks. Everything has risks. Putting solar on roofs is one of the most dangerous occupations in the energy field. People get seriously injured and die falling off roofs. So it is not without hazards itself.
Problem with nuclear at this point isnt the risk it is the time. New nuclear power plants take a huge amount of money and time. It takes a very long to design, plan, develop and test. Energy companies also need huge government subsidies for insurance and build. Far faster and easier to go solar and wind.
 
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I posted the text for those who cannot access the piece.
some very strong arguments against this agreement were made.
if this was one of obama's great deals why did he never submit it for ratification?

Really Obama get something through the "Obama is the devil." Congress. Lets be honest. That would have been a total waste of time. Imhofe would bring another Snowball into the capital.

Who wrote the "Opinion Piece" WSJ has been known to have some total right wing conservatives that believe climate change is a hoax and god will step in write "Opinion Pieces".
 
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