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U.S. Right-Wing Conservatives Attitudes Towards Tesla?

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I am what you would probably call a right wing conservative (I think the "right wing" part is meant to create some sort of preconceived notion, but such is the state of discourse these days). I only speak for myself, a two-time Tesla owner (P85 and P85D), but my issue with Tesla, and think this is true of many other conservatives, has to do with the politics behind the type of energy Tesla vehicles use. I.e., we have problems with the zealotry of certain global warming/climate change/whatever-it's-called-today activism.

In other words, Tesla is seen as part of this attempt to use global warming to grab ever increasing levels of power (political and regulatory, not energy power) to advance left wing political agendas.

Take a look through this forum and you'll see how many people conflate Tesla with the global warming agenda...and that explains why many conservatives have issues with Tesla.

Which is hilarious because Tesla was created to save the planet from global climate change.
The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me) | Tesla Motors

And I quote:

"As you know, the initial product of Tesla Motors is a high performance electric sports car called the Tesla Roadster. However, some readers may not be aware of the fact that our long term plan is to build a wide range of models, including affordably priced family cars. This is because the overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution."
 
Which is hilarious because Tesla was created to save the planet from global climate change.
The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me) | Tesla Motors

And I quote:

"As you know, the initial product of Tesla Motors is a high performance electric sports car called the Tesla Roadster. However, some readers may not be aware of the fact that our long term plan is to build a wide range of models, including affordably priced family cars. This is because the overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution."

In fairness, moving from one economy/model to another is not necessarily to "save the planet from global climate change." I believe, as I think you do, that this is an undercurrent. But sustainability doesn't necessarily mean global samaritanism, and I think one needs to read a bit into that statement to get to the truth. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. But I think if they made global climate change a primary assertion in their public business discussions, they'd have a lot more push back from the markets.
 
In fairness, moving from one economy/model to another is not necessarily to "save the planet from global climate change." I believe, as I think you do, that this is an undercurrent. But sustainability doesn't necessarily mean global samaritanism, and I think one needs to read a bit into that statement to get to the truth. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. But I think if they made global climate change a primary assertion in their public business discussions, they'd have a lot more push back from the markets.

Not sure I buy that, Elon is the guy who has said he want's to die on Mars...
Elon Musk Wants to Die on Mars | Vanity Fair

Becoming an “interplanetary species” will eventually be our most attractive (only?) hope for survival, Musk says, declaring that “space travel is the best thing we can do to extend the life of humanity.”
 
I have trouble anytime people are labeled into some group and then someone asks, "what does this group think about....?" People are individuals, and it's extremely difficult to find meaningful groupings, especially on subjects with as many facets as Tesla.

I mostly agree. I know many, many people who operate without labels; who think, assess, and form a viewpoint on each issue. For the most part, those are the people I find interesting and respect. But, I also have met quite a few people who "adopt" a certain set of beliefs; either because they can't be bothered to think things through, or out of a strong desire to identify with and belong to a group. I find that scary, but I imagine it has always been so.
 
And this is why I won't be posting further to this thread. The original topic was to get insight on why conservatives may not like Tesla. I gave that perspective. The discussion then devolved into the tired old shouting match where global warming zealots try to shout down anyone who won't agree with them.

Well, I tried my best to explain how Elon views money/profit differently than the traditional capitalist, but you seem more interested in fighting with "zealots".

On a separate note: thanks to all who sent me reputation points in response to my shameless request! I love green bars more than gold bars and I appreciate all the help in my greedy quest for more green bars.
 
I am conservative and nearly all of my conservative friends like Elon Musk and Tesla. Musk is an entrepreneur. He built "this".

Conservatives and libertarians generally don't like cronyism like what we're seeing with many states banning sales. Free market economies should be promoted. Anyone who tries to deny Tesla the right to sell their product in any manner they so choose, is no conservative.
 
I am conservative and nearly all of my conservative friends like Elon Musk and Tesla. Musk is an entrepreneur. He built "this".

Worse context in the world to throw out the "he built this" argument. May I remind you that the full quote is:

"Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business—you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen"


Elon did not, in fact, build the roads and bridges that the Model S drive on - which is the biggest expense and an absolute prerequisite for driving any of the cars that Tesla sells. Someone else indeed made that happen...
 
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Worse context in the world to throw out the "he built this" argument. May I remind you that the full quote is:

"Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business—you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen"


Elon did not, in fact, build the roads and bridges that the Model S drive on - which is the biggest expense and an absolute prerequisite for driving any of the cars that Tesla sells. Someone else indeed made that happen...
Isn't that the truth.
 
Worse context in the world to throw out the "he built this" argument. May I remind you that the full quote is:

"Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business—you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen"


Elon did not, in fact, build the roads and bridges that the Model S drive on - which is the biggest expense and an absolute prerequisite for driving any of the cars that Tesla sells. Someone else indeed made that happen...

Actually, the full quote - much longer - is this:

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me—because they want to give something back. They know they didn't—look, if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own... If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business—you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen.

The full context reads beyond roads and bridges. My English teacher would argue that "you didn't build that" applies to "if you've got a business" if you parse the words in a non-political context. Partisans are going to parse it whichever way helps them win Internet argument contests. Either way, it was an unfortunate blunder that has stuck. Even if he was talking about infrastructure that is best served by a form of government, telling the small business owners who work very hard that infrastructure is more important than their blood, sweat, and tears usually won't gain their vote.
 
The full context reads beyond roads and bridges. My English teacher would argue that "you didn't build that" applies to "if you've got a business" if you parse the words in a non-political context. Partisans are going to parse it whichever way helps them win Internet argument contests. Either way, it was an unfortunate blunder that has stuck. Even if he was talking about infrastructure that is best served by a form of government, telling the small business owners who work very hard that infrastructure is more important than their blood, sweat, and tears usually won't gain their vote.

The "... you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen" goes back to the stuff earlier in the paragraph, referring to infrastructure. The first part of that paragraph is "you didn't get there on your own..." and then right before it, "somebody invested in roads and bridges."

The issue here is that people believe what they want to believe, even if twisting words is the way to do it. Everyone that gives speeches is likely to occasionally string together words that can be misinterpreted. Is it more important to get a gotcha over interpretation of words, or understand the gist of what is being communicated? To evaluate the actual actions and efforts?

For example, this Trump thing with the blood... I'm willing to let him go with blood coming out of any number of body parts as his intended message. It was meant no differently as smoke coming out of her ears, or steam coming out of her nostrils. If you want to "get" the guy, get him based on his actual intent, like somehow getting Mexico to build the southern border wall is some sort of sane immigration/foreign policy and has any shot of working, both in terms of getting a wall built for billions of dollar is even effective and whether or not he can get Mexico to do it.
 
The "... you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen" goes back to the stuff earlier in the paragraph, referring to infrastructure. The first part of that paragraph is "you didn't get there on your own..." and then right before it, "somebody invested in roads and bridges."

For what it's worth, his campaign said in the aftermath that it referred to the whole paragraph - education + infrastructure, etc.

I won't argue the merits, other than to say that I think everyone understood the gist and that it's fundamentally a difference in beliefs.
 
And I quote:

"As you know, the initial product of Tesla Motors is a high performance electric sports car called the Tesla Roadster. However, some readers may not be aware of the fact that our long term plan is to build a wide range of models, including affordably priced family cars. This is because the overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution."

Err, I don't see any mention of climate change there. I thought he was talking about saving our civilization from Peak Oil.
 
And I've heard the same thing from extreme left wingers. There are those who feel we shouldn't even be driving cars and we should all grow our own food and ride bicycles. Money spent subsidizing companies like Tesla should be going to not-for-profit sustainability projects etc. etc.

I have never seen an article from a respectable news source that show a study like this. I'm sure there are opinion pieces on the fringe that state things like this, but not mainstream news sources. Like the study from the National Bureau of Economic Research that was picked up by many new sources.
 
Actually, the full quote - much longer - is this:



The full context reads beyond roads and bridges. My English teacher would argue that "you didn't build that" applies to "if you've got a business" if you parse the words in a non-political context. Partisans are going to parse it whichever way helps them win Internet argument contests. Either way, it was an unfortunate blunder that has stuck. Even if he was talking about infrastructure that is best served by a form of government, telling the small business owners who work very hard that infrastructure is more important than their blood, sweat, and tears usually won't gain their vote.

This whole quote from Obama, and how it was twisted, is the quickest and easiest instance of a much broader dynamic I see at work in the US (or at least, the portions of it I interact with a little or a lot). I've decided to call it "Diggs' 8th Habit for Highly Effective Politicians", a takeoff from Covey's 7 Habits. Among the first 7 Habits of Highly Effective people we have "seek first to understand, then to be understood" (Covey's 5th habit: link).

The 8th habit, as constructed by me, is something like "Seek first to misunderstand, then go on the attack".

In the particular instance of what Obama was talking about, it has never been unclear to me the idea he was trying to express. He wasn't demeaning business owners or trying to say they were less than they are, or that business building is easy. It was always clear to me that he was saying that building a business (and it generalizes to a lot of other things) happens within an ecosystem. That ecosystem includes infrastructure (roads and bridges), which is what a lot of people fixate on. And that's clearly true, but it's also a lot broader than that.

That ecosystem also includes a system of law, both the letter of the law, as well as the softer edges around who, how, and when it gets enforced. Those things also contribute or detract from the building of a business. And of government, freedoms, educational opportunities and system, and on and on. I am absolutely of the belief that little things in the US - reasonably high compliance with traffic law, and reasonably low levels of corruption in government, are huge contributors to our economic system.

Heck - one of the things that makes the US stock markets so popular is the relative transparency of the companies in the markets. (I'm going with relative here - I know there are opportunities to be better). These are elements of the ecosystem in which business building occurs in. If any interaction with a government official needs a handful of cash to make it happen, that is a friction in the ecosystem that slows everything down and makes it harder to conduct business.

If compliance with traffic laws is minimal or nonexistent, overall traffic flow is much slower, there are more expenses associated with the mayhem that results. You will also need more and bigger roads so that you can have more cars not moving on them. Lack of compliance with traffic laws adds friction to society and makes it less efficient to conduct business. It's all part of the ecosystem in which we live, and it all contributes to the environment in which a business is built.

In the extreme, you could even say that the customers of the business helped build the business - unless we think any business owner is so amazingly good that they can build up a business without customers. And of course, overemphasizing this point also leads us somewhere ridiculous and not intended by anybody.


For me, the idea of Covey's 5th Habit ("seek first to understand, and then to be understood") is easy enough - it's just awfully hard to implement in practice. I figure that to do it well, I need to understand what somebody is trying to convey from their point of view - what is the truth, the nugget, that they are trying to express through the haze of the imperfect words that they are using? I need to understand it the way they understand it, whether I agree with the point or not. And the words are always imperfect - the language being used is imprecise, and the person using the imprecise language is human themselves, and that means they are bringing their imperfection to how they convey the idea, better or worse, at any particular moment. So I'll invariably have clarifying questions to make sure I'm understanding the idea.

It takes work on the part of the listener (reader) to understand the intent of what's being communicated.


I grow increasingly worried that too much of the 8th Habit signals we've reached the peak, and have begun the decline of our society and civilization. I suppose in a selfish way I might be fortunate and have the serious decline wait long enough that I can die and not witness it. Whether we sort out AGW or not.

And on the off-chance this point is unclear - maybe due to the title of the thread - I don't see anybody in the political spectrum with a lock on the 8th Habit. I encounter people who's ideas I agree with and believe in, and it's equally apparent to me that they are applying the 8th Habit in their attempt to "persuade" people to their point of view. In fairness, I believe there are a small number of people applying the 8th Habit consciously - I think most of the time, it's happening unconsciously.


Another recent example that many people would have encountered in the Investor's section, were the proposals at the Shareholder meeting that Tesla move to all vegan interiors. My own impression from reading those threads, is that the individuals making the proposals weren't interested in understanding other points of view - they had a bat they wanted to swing, and any response (even responses in agreement with the central thesis that at least the option would be nice), were met with a swing of the bat.


I'll put the soapbox away now. I'm at a loss how to tie this back to the original question of the thread - I apologize for wandering off in the weeds :)
 
For example, this Trump thing with the blood... I'm willing to let him go with blood coming out of any number of body parts as his intended message. It was meant no differently as smoke coming out of her ears, or steam coming out of her nostrils. If you want to "get" the guy, get him based on his actual intent, like somehow getting Mexico to build the southern border wall is some sort of sane immigration/foreign policy and has any shot of working, both in terms of getting a wall built for billions of dollar is even effective and whether or not he can get Mexico to do it.

I agree. I am by no means a Trump supporter but do we really he think he meant to say Megan Kelly was attacking him because she was menstruating? I highly doubt he had that intention and everyone knows it yet it became an easy and provocative topic that the press jumps all over rather than dealing with important topics.

It's the same thing with the "you didn't build that" speech by President Obama. Of course he never meant that and it clearly was poorly worded. But the bigger point that gets lost. That is, the so-called "American Dream" is now more attainable outside of American than by someone living in America. But no one wants to deal with that issue. It's easier to attack sound bites.
 
Sorry, no. Not giving Trump a pass on that wording. He's been unapologetic about other misognynistic statements he's made over the years, some quite recently. This fits in with everything else he's said, so no. If it was out of character, I'd assume it had been twisted. But that statement is squarely within his wheelhouse. He didn't like getting called out, he got called out by Megyn Kelly, and he said what he said. He didn't forget the word for other body parts. Has he apologized for other things he's said about women that clearly crossed a line? No. He just waxes on about how we're too politically correct now. There's a huge difference between politically correct and common decency.
 
Sorry, no. Not giving Trump a pass on that wording. He's been unapologetic about other misognynistic statements he's made over the years, some quite recently. This fits in with everything else he's said, so no. If it was out of character, I'd assume it had been twisted. But that statement is squarely within his wheelhouse. He didn't like getting called out, he got called out by Megyn Kelly, and he said what he said. He didn't forget the word for other body parts. Has he apologized for other things he's said about women that clearly crossed a line? No. He just waxes on about how we're too politically correct now. There's a huge difference between politically correct and common decency.

+1!
 
Sorry, no. Not giving Trump a pass on that wording. He's been unapologetic about other misognynistic statements he's made over the years, some quite recently. This fits in with everything else he's said, so no. If it was out of character, I'd assume it had been twisted. But that statement is squarely within his wheelhouse. He didn't like getting called out, he got called out by Megyn Kelly, and he said what he said. He didn't forget the word for other body parts. Has he apologized for other things he's said about women that clearly crossed a line? No. He just waxes on about how we're too politically correct now. There's a huge difference between politically correct and common decency.

Ah, sigh, I should have chosen a better example. He's definitely misognynistic, and if he really did mean menstruation, then yeah, he should be called out for it.

Maybe the whole Al Gore father of the Internet thing? Can I screw that one up too?