Ugh the Tesla Tax is still a thing??

[SageBrush]

The $100 hack got me to thinking what a reasonable but inexpensive install with a TMC might look like. What do people think about chopping off the plug of the EVSE 14-50 adapter and hard wiring it think ? It would save the cost of the GFI. A polaris type connector in the J-box would make for an easy splice in the box since we are probably using #8 AWG conductors.

I would install on the drywall with conduit from the electric panel to a j-box. The only extra cost would be a gland for the EVSE cable.

 

[ATPMSD]

The text has not changed in the 2023 edition. I just checked.

You have fallen into a common trap in regulations - you cannot look at only one section of the code and call it a day!

Yes, ARTICLE 625 is for "Electric Vehicle Charging and Supply Equipment Systems" and yes, 625.54 refers to EVs.

However, 210.8(A) specially calls out the ground-fault requirement for Bathrooms, Garages and Accessory Buildings, Outdoors, Crawl Spaces, Basements, Kitchens, Sinks, Boathouses, Bathtubs and Shower Stalls, Laundry Areas, Indoor Damp and Wet Locations, among others. So while 625.54 is still in the code, it is moot.

Please also consider that a 240V and 50A outlet will kill you pretty quick, so even if a jurisdiction has not adopted the latest version of the code, failing to install a GFCI breaker is not a good idea.

This is my last response to you on this subject.

 

[Allx]

If you do that you will likely get a 30 Amp receptacle, good for 24 Amp EV charging. And depending where the receptacle is located, you may not get the GFI an EV requires. NEC requires all receptacles in a garage to be GFI protected, but it is still a common error to not do so. It is just about a sure thing to be done wrong for the $100 crowd since the correct breaker costs $150 - $200 all by itself

Thanks for the insight . So electrician do this ( install a 14-50 with only 30A backing it ) ? Aren’t there 30A outlets out there like 10-30 ?

Edit : I think I see where I went wrong . I thought dryers were on 14-50 , sounds like they’re typically on 10-30.

 

[SageBrush]

so you do not see anything except the outlet.

I'm curious how it was installed. Via an attic or basement ?

 

[brkaus]

I don't know much about welders but I have seen specs for 10-30r and 14-30r.
I suspect that photos are going to be good for a laugh on the trickster, but we'll know if he posts them.

My folks asked for a welder outlet in a new construction garage. This was before EVs were a thing. They got a 6-50 on 8ga nm-b with a 40a breaker.

 

[SageBrush]

So by that, a 14-50 installed for the purpose of connecting to an EVSE would require a GFCI. A 14-50 installed for the purpose of connecting to welding equipment or to an RV would not. And it's perfectly fine to later change your mind and decide to use that same outlet to charge EVs, and the code doesn't require you to update the breaker.

The NEC code dictates installation practices, in part a reflection of intended usage. After the installer leaves you can be as stupid as your heart desires. You may be happy to learn e.g. that the NEC does not forbid owners from sticking their fingers into the receptacle.

A good example of this is breaker selection for a motor. Nothing stops an idiot from plugging in a motor with e.g. 4x start-up current into a circuit not sized for that application.

 

[brkaus]

Thanks for the insight . So electrician do this ( install a 14-50 with only 30A backing it ) ? Aren’t there 30A outlets out there like 10-30 ?

Edit : I think I see where I went wrong . I thought dryers were on 14-50 , sounds like they’re typically on 10-30.

Old dryers, 10-30. Current standard is 14-30.

 

[SageBrush]

Old dryers, 10-30. Current standard is 14-30.

Yes. with the difference being that 10-30 is two hots and a neutral, while the 14 series adds a ground wire. 240v EVSE requires two hots and a ground.

 

[brkaus]

Yes. with the difference being that 10-30 is two hots and a neutral, while the 14 series adds a ground wire. 240v EVSE requires two hots and a ground.

Yup. So you dont get that little tingling feeling when you touch exposed metal on the dryer and the steel sink next to it. From the small voltage drop due to current running through the neutral wire.

 

[ATPMSD]

240v EVSE requires two hots and a ground.

Actually a 10-30 is fine; the neutral “serves” as the ground and you can get a 10-30 adapter such as this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Tesla-Motors-Adapter-Mobile-Connector/dp/B09889PJ6G

 

[SageBrush]

Actually a 10-30 is fine

Not so fine, as in not allowed by NEC in new installations.
It will work, but it is not as safe as the NEC would like

I'm not positive, but I think of a 10-30 as potentially returning a ground fault on a grounded conductor. I think this is analogous to bonding the neutral and ground in a sub-panel. The neutral wire in a 10-30 is there to also supply 120v loads. Using it to give a return path to a ground fault is less than ideal.

 

[STS-134]

You have fallen into a common trap in regulations - you cannot look at only one section of the code and call it a day!

Yes, ARTICLE 625 is for "Electric Vehicle Charging and Supply Equipment Systems" and yes, 625.54 refers to EVs.

However, 210.8(A) specially calls out the ground-fault requirement for Bathrooms, Garages and Accessory Buildings, Outdoors, Crawl Spaces, Basements, Kitchens, Sinks, Boathouses, Bathtubs and Shower Stalls, Laundry Areas, Indoor Damp and Wet Locations, among others. So while 625.54 is still in the code, it is moot.

210.8(A) has called for GFCIs in garages in bathrooms since at least the 1980s. But what seems to have changed is that they inserted language into 210.8(A) that requires GFCI on all 125-250V receptacles "supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground" which is the case for all split phase power as well as 3 phase power that takes 2 phases with respect to ground, whereas previously it had limited the required to 125V, 15A and 20A receptacles. 210.8(A) GFCI Protection. Dwelling Units.

And 625.54 isn't entirely moot. If you for some reason wanted to install a 14-50 outlet in your living room, entry area, a bedroom, etc., "for the purpose of charging an EV", then the code says you'd have to install a GFCI breaker to protect it.

Interestingly, this now requires GFCI on all dryer outlets in laundry rooms, because there's no exceptions for the types of appliances served or location of the receptacle. If it is in a laundry room, it needs to have GFCI.

 

[father_of_6]

the NEC does not forbid owners from sticking their fingers into the receptacle.

I'm shocked by this

 

[STS-134]

Yes. with the difference being that 10-30 is two hots and a neutral, while the 14 series adds a ground wire. 240v EVSE requires two hots and a ground.

Except for the Tesla UMC, which apparently is fine with not having a ground (if used with the appropriate plug adapter). The NEMA 10-30 adapter that they sell is really the odd one out, as it's the only 1 of the 8 that doesn't have a ground. I've taken my multimeter to see what's going on and it looks like all of the adapters are wired like this:

The communication pins tell the Mobile Connector what type of plug it's using (for setting the maximum advertised current). L1 and L2, the charging phases, are connected to the large pins (on NEMA 5, L1 is neutral, and on all others, it's one of the two hot phases). The GND pin is always ground, except on NEMA 10-30, where they've basically just wired it to neutral. Since neutral isn't really used for anything except to ground the EVSE, it's probably not too dangerous, unlike on an actual dryer, where the neutral pin is typically actually carrying current (from the motor and dryer's lights).

 

[ATPMSD]

Not so fine, as in not allowed by NEC in new installations.
It will work, but it is not as safe as the NEC would like

I'm not positive, but I think of a 10-30 as potentially returning a ground fault on a grounded conductor. I think this is analogous to bonding the neutral and ground in a sub-panel. The neutral wire in a 10-30 is there to also supply 120v loads. Using it to give a return path to a ground fault is less than ideal.

Totally agree, not allowed for new installations. However, it is perfectly usable if one already exists and my point is only that a Tesla adapter is available for the mobile connector.

 

[DeltaOne]

Yup. So you dont get that little tingling feeling when you touch exposed metal on the dryer and the steel sink next to it. From the small voltage drop due to current running through the neutral wire.

My home was built/wired in the early 1970's. Bought a new electric range a few months ago and discovered the tingling feeling when touching the new range and microwave (just above it) at the same time. Both appliances functioned normally, but the tingling feeling was no fun!

If I remember correctly my electrician replaced the old wire (containing a hot, hot and neutral) with a new wire (that contains a hot, hot, neutral and ground).

 

[mrbulk]

I'm curious how it was installed. Via an attic or basement ?

Naw, they just went right into the wall from the breaker box and made an exit hole about 4 feet later.

 

[SageBrush]

Naw, they just went right into the wall from the breaker box and made an exit hole about 4 feet later.

How did they get through the studs ?

 

[mrbulk]

How did they get through the studs ?

No idea, they arrived in the morning, I went back inside for coffee and breakfast and they knocked on the door later to tell me it was done. I woulda snapped a pic but we sold that house in late 2021.

 

[Sophias_dad]

How did they get through the studs ?

Most likely a flexible boring bit. Four feet is only two or three studs, depending on your definition of four feet and where you start and end. Even if its three, that means the other two are very close to the openings. As long as insulation isn't involved I wouldn't expect this to be all that difficult.