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UK FSD Discussion

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Can we drop the e-scooter discussion, it’s become irrelevant and it’s not thie job of this thread or even this forum to try and educate people outside the uk on how the uk deals with e-scooter offences.

edit: As people insist on talking about escooters on an FSD thread (and escooters are about as far removed from self driving as you can get with electrically propelled transport) I've moved loads of posts to a new thread.
 
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No, it really doesn't. But nice try.



Level 3 also doesn't demand you use lidar, radar, ultrasonic, GPS, road mappings and so on, but guess what! Legacy makers are and Tesla are not. In accepting legal liability, Mercedes-Benz are telling the world they're confident and that anyone disavowing it is not.

View attachment 993939

So Tesla must follow suit. That is all.

I would note that, once again the proponents of Autopilot are resorting to diversions in an attempt to push this topic into the weeds, away from the real issue: that a lashed together, budget constrained cameras-only system, whose only defining consistency is that it's really bad, is going to end up in the mud.
Does anyone else see a huge wiggle for the lawyers in the Mercedes wording, "though it will depend on each individual case." I would not be comfortable relying on that.
 
Does anyone else see a huge wiggle for the lawyers in the Mercedes wording, "though it will depend on each individual case." I would not be comfortable relying on that.
Personally, not really, for a couple of reasons:

- All contracts tend to have clauses covering reasonable exceptions including law, abuse etc, eg lack of proper maintenance, unauthorised changes, drunk driver (even if the car is on level 3) etc the list is endless.

- a contract between a company and an individual needs to be fair. As a buyer we are not expected to get lawyers to review the wording, nor enter a contractual discussion, so we have reasonable protection from the law that we won’t be unduly stitched up.

But happy to be proved wrong
 
Personally, not really, for a couple of reasons:

- All contracts tend to have clauses covering reasonable exceptions including law, abuse etc, eg lack of proper maintenance, unauthorised changes, drunk driver (even if the car is on level 3) etc the list is endless.

- a contract between a company and an individual needs to be fair. As a buyer we are not expected to get lawyers to review the wording, nor enter a contractual discussion, so we have reasonable protection from the law that we won’t be unduly stitched up.

But happy to be proved wrong
I'd like to see the actual wording in whatever document purports to a buyer that Mercedes has assumed legal liability. I am not as confident as you but I am known to be risk-averse.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with UK legislation for future automated driving (Manufacturer has liability etc) and Tesla likely to remain 'L2' as a result, what would be a fair price for FSD in the UK? Kind of wondering where Tesla will go with this. I would certainly pay a reasonable monthly subscription or a one off fee, but not at the current prices. The $12k price in the US is just too expensive considering its direction of travel is to finish as level 2, albeit, as good as you can get for L2. So what price would make quite a lot of us go right ahead and buy it?
 
Highlights from the 2nd Lords committee session on Automated Driving Bill:

“in the current state of our infrastructure, automated vehicles will simply not work.”

“I live a mile from the city centre of Cardiff, where there is a very poor mobile network.
It would certainly not be strong, regular and reliable enough for automated vehicles.”

“There is no point putting in a whole network of charging points … if none is usable by automated vehicles.”

“It is not going to come into the countryside”

“it was in the press at the weekend… the infrastructure mapping must be accurate.”

“investing in information systems that can communicate directly with vehicles”

“The AV industry considers that there will have to be changes to our roads for its vehicles to operate”

“not realistic to argue that delivery robots are part of this Bill if they cannot deliver.”

“probe the difference between ‘automated,’ ‘autonomous,’ ‘autonomously’ and ‘self-driving’”

“better design requirements to ensure journeys are accessible”

“Law Commissions recommended offering a separate bespoke scheme, creating a clear and lawful route for [public] service providers to become licensed”

“Potentially, for the first time in England, this would criminalise jaywalking”

At least the government representatives are clued up and determined to get this bill done without delay.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with UK legislation for future automated driving (Manufacturer has liability etc) and Tesla likely to remain 'L2' as a result, what would be a fair price for FSD in the UK? Kind of wondering where Tesla will go with this. I would certainly pay a reasonable monthly subscription or a one off fee, but not at the current prices. The $12k price in the US is just too expensive considering its direction of travel is to finish as level 2, albeit, as good as you can get for L2. So what price would make quite a lot of us go right ahead and buy it?
Elon is going all out for robotaxi. Nothing less which could slow things down.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with UK legislation for future automated driving (Manufacturer has liability etc) and Tesla likely to remain 'L2' as a result
is this different in any other markets?

I would have thought logically the manufacturer will need to assume liability for all autonomous vehicles > level 2 ?

In the meantime regulations will likely catch up:

  • The UK Autonomous Vehicle Bill is currently in committee stage in the house of Lords where the final sitting is tomorrow, before going to report stage and 3rd reading, then passed to the House of Commons. Once passed vehicles in UK can use this legislation rather than, or in addition to, UNECE autonomy rules.

  • Separately, UNECE regulations should be in place within a year also, possibly even from this summer
 
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Highlights from the 2nd Lords committee session on Automated Driving Bill:

“in the current state of our infrastructure, automated vehicles will simply not work.”

“I live a mile from the city centre of Cardiff, where there is a very poor mobile network.
It would certainly not be strong, regular and reliable enough for automated vehicles.”

“There is no point putting in a whole network of charging points … if none is usable by automated vehicles.”

“It is not going to come into the countryside”

“it was in the press at the weekend… the infrastructure mapping must be accurate.”

“investing in information systems that can communicate directly with vehicles”

“The AV industry considers that there will have to be changes to our roads for its vehicles to operate”

“not realistic to argue that delivery robots are part of this Bill if they cannot deliver.”

“probe the difference between ‘automated,’ ‘autonomous,’ ‘autonomously’ and ‘self-driving’”

“better design requirements to ensure journeys are accessible”

“Law Commissions recommended offering a separate bespoke scheme, creating a clear and lawful route for [public] service providers to become licensed”

“Potentially, for the first time in England, this would criminalise jaywalking”

At least the government representatives are clued up and determined to get this bill done without delay.
Asking the views of a House where the average age of members is 72 is a sure way to make quick progress on AI & Autonomous vehicles....

Give me a hands-free L2 EAP and that would be good enough for me in the meantime...
 
is this different in any other markets?

I would have thought logically the manufacturer will need to assume liability for all autonomous vehicles > level 2 ?

In the meantime regulations will likely catch up:

  • The UK Autonomous Vehicle Bill is currently in committee stage in the house of Lords where the final sitting is tomorrow, before going to report stage and 3rd reading, then passed to the House of Commons. Once passed vehicles in UK can use this legislation rather than, or in addition to, UNECE autonomy rules.

  • Separately, UNECE regulations should be in place within a year also, possibly even from this summer
Is there a good summary of the bill anywhere? Or just a link as the intros are usually pretty readable.
 
is this different in any other markets?

I would have thought logically the manufacturer will need to assume liability for all autonomous vehicles > level 2 ?

In the meantime regulations will likely catch up:

  • The UK Autonomous Vehicle Bill is currently in committee stage in the house of Lords where the final sitting is tomorrow, before going to report stage and 3rd reading, then passed to the House of Commons. Once passed vehicles in UK can use this legislation rather than, or in addition to, UNECE autonomy rules.

  • Separately, UNECE regulations should be in place within a year also, possibly even from this summer
The UK Autonomous Vehicles Bill does not contain any new regulations, it simply instructs the Secretary of State for Transport to produce some and bring them back to parliament. There's nothing in the current bill to use until that happens.
 
Mercedes have the only logical and viable roadmap in my opinion. Start with L3 in a limited capacity and then as confidence grows on all sides, and issues are identified and dealt with, slowly relax the restrictions. I really can’t see an alternative approach that’s going to get off the ground.

On that basis I can see L3 and maybe even L4 on motorways in the next 5-10 years.

Tesla may come up with software that can drive brilliantly 99.999% of the time and even happily power slide around a roundabout for fun, but that isn’t going to be enough to go from L2 to L4/5 which is what they seem to be trying to do.
 
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Not really.. if the car is truly self driving the human 'driver' is just a passenger and not resonsible for any accidents.

Therefore the responsibility falls onto the manufacturer of the computer system that is driving. If the manufacturer isn't prepared to take on that responsibility it shows they don't believe their system is safe enough for general use.