Unpopular Opinion - I don't want Autopilot/Autonomous vehicles

[roblab]

I added to the "no" vote. I will state up front without reservation that computers and software scare the living bejeesus out of me. (I am also 63 years old.) I am full of fear, uncertainly and doubt.

Don't blame it on age. I'm 73, and I greatly enjoy the advances that tech gives us. I use AP where it was intended, it's absolutely great and saves me a lot of stressed muscles and brain cells. But I watch, keep my hand on the wheel, and I know what it can't do. Sort of like watching kids do a job, right? Or maybe that causes FUD also.

 

[theboom1]

My sahdow mode idea would solve all of the problems you listed but some people just dont get it. Another way I thought of to word my shadow mode idea for the people who didn't like it, how about instead of it correcting you after you make a mistake, it corrects you before? You do something like turn or hit the brake and before the car actually does anything the computer checks to see if it can safely be done and if it can, it will then do it. If not, it will deny it and not do it. Once self driving cares come into full swing, the computers should be able to process your request very fast so their is very little delay so it does't frustrate you. Im just trying to come up with way people like me(there are a lot of us) can keep at least some of the experience of driving. Whatever that may be and no not having to go to a private track. I just can't accept that we can't have a compromise between what we have now and full automaton with no human controls that will make everyone happy. I agree with using automated safety systems to avoid crashes and to solve traffic problems. Heck even you just look it at face value, it prevents from you or someone else wrecking you nice new car you just bought. But on off peak traffic hours or on not extremely high traffic roads, their has to be solution that lets people still enjoy the driving experience while keeping the driver and other people safe. But to say that the only solution to our car related deaths and traffic problems is to completely 100% ban the human controlling the car in any way while on a pubic road shows that you are as just unwilling to compromise and come up with a solution that could solve all of the problems as the people that don't want self driving car

 

[aesculus]

I rarely use my autopilot. Cruise control much more. I like driving my car.

But I want all other drivers to purchase AP and use it so their cars are safer for the driving conditions around me.

 

[AB4EJ]

We need to be careful to distinguish between Tesla's Autopilot and autonomous vehicles. Autopilot is a driver assist feature; in an autonomous vehicle, the system itself is the driver.

I can foresee a day when autonomous vehicles will be the standard transportation, and you will need special permission to operate a vehicle manually on the roads. This is just a question of when.

Here's how the government will see it (not talking smack here, I have done a lot of work for US DOT) -

• Autonomous vehicles will be safer than human-piloted vehicles. They don't speed or fall asleep.
• This will reduce the funding necessary to cover the cost of state troopers, because there will be no violations for them to observe. (Federal funding is used for some state trooper work in most states, particularly for commercial vehicles).
  
• Commerce will be improved because autonomous vehicles can safety operate in platoons (just a few feet between vehicles). This also will reduce the need for highway improvement funds because existing interstates can carry much more traffic this way.

If you don't like autonomous vehicles, you will be part of a very large club that feels this way, but one can't stand in the way of progress indefinitely...

 

[MXFLA]

Yours is an unpopular opinion for people who like to live. Over 40k US Citizens die each year in auto accidents, and 1.3M globally die each year. The vast majority are driver error. When autonomy is shown to be significantly safer than human driving, which looks like it will happen in my lifetime, I will have no problem handing over the steering wheel to the robots. People still like to ride horses, and in the future people will still like to drive cars, but I am thankful that my kids and grandkids will be safer on the roadways as a result of this amazing technology.

 

[Skotty]

I think I may definitely be in the minority here, but I just don't get the huge demand for autonomous personal vehicles.

Firstly, I am seeing so many people saying that they want a base Model x (x as in the variable) as long as it has autopilot - and that is their first option. I figure that these are the technology folks. Not necessarily the driving folks. Why would you spend all that money on a vehicle, a vehicle that will probably perform like a great driver's car, only to let a machine drive it? Especially if these folks are stretching their budget. Isn't that what mass transit or ride sharing is all about?
I have an emotional problem with that stance since I absolutely love to drive. I drive stick in rush hour traffic and it doesn't bother me. I like stepping on the gas in the twisties and seeing where the edge of traction is. I like to get the car sideways in the snow. But practically, I could find L3 or L4 autopilot to be handy on occasion only.

Secondly, I think with autonomous, or partially autonomous vehicles, we will get a "dumbing down" of the driving skill of the driving population. If the car starts taking over more and more of the driving job, then the person behind the wheel/yoke/touchscreen slowly loses his/her edge and ability to react to one-off situations that computers can not handle. As Elon said, there are 8 billion corner cases to figure out with Autonomous vehicles.
Just as I feel driving an automatic transmission takes your attention away from your driver-car-road relationship, driving a semi- or fully-autonomous vehicle will also take away your connection and full attention to the road. I see this as a downfall and only very strict legislation will make this work, but unfortunately that strict legislation will ruin the fun (Think: no non-autonomous vehicles, lower speed limits, no driving in inclement weather, etc.).

Maybe I'm overthinking this, maybe I'm pessimistic (I'd be lying if I said that wasn't one of my traits), but maybe I'm thinking too far ahead and am way off. Or maybe because it's 4am and I'm rambling.

At this point, it's pretty obvious that I will be saving myself the $2000+ on Autopilot convenience features (glad that the safety features are included) for these top 3 reasons:

1) Safety. You are still responsible for your car, your passengers and those around you. If you think AP is perfect, you're wrong. It can be helpful, but the numbers do not yet prove it.
2) Liability. If someone borrows my car and engages AP features without knowing the downfalls or quirks, I would not want to be involved in that mess.
3) Maintain my mental driving skills. I know I personally would be guilty of letting it take over more and more until the point comes that I am relying on it too much, and then a situation will arise where I will need to take over in a split second. I need to have the muscle memory and reaction time to correct if need be. I want my kids to be able to drive manually and be able to react to other bad situations very defensively. If we don't know exaclty what the AP computer would do, then we need to be prepared.

I'm a bit of a luddite, but I love some technology jumps, and I'm very much looking forward to my Model 3.

This has been on my mind for several months now, and I felt the need to get my thoughts written down. It's late, this probably isn't that coherent, but hopefully it makes sense to a few others out there perhaps in the same boat as myself.

I added a poll to prove my point. I will bet that less than 10% of respondents will choose No.

I'm with you in that I have no interest in a totally autonomous car. And I'm doubtful there will ever even be such a thing given the endless possible driving scenarios that a computer program likely won't handle well. I also like to drive, and miss having a manual transmission.

However, I probably will get Autopilot on my next Tesla, and here's why -- while I love to drive, I'm frankly not such a fan of highway travel. It's long, simple, and boring. A perfect job for a computer program. I don't want it for around town, but on long highway trips, even just as an assist, it could help me to drive more safely, and stay in my lane better. While I'm a reasonably good driver, I do drift out of my lane slightly on rare occasion, and it would be nice if autopilot was holding the lane for me. I see value in just being the babysitter and just taking over when weird stuff happens.

So really I don't care, but I probably will add it to my next Tesla purchase strictly for it's utility on extended interstate travel (which I do fairly often for work).

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I have an emotional problem with that stance since I absolutely love to drive. I drive stick in rush hour traffic and it doesn't bother me. I like stepping on the gas in the twisties and seeing where the edge of traction is. I like to get the car sideways in the snow. But practically, I could find L3 or L4 autopilot to be handy on occasion only.

I love all those things as well, but I haven't DRIVEN in years. Practically everywhere I go I'm stuck behind someone else. Rush hour traffic means hours will go by and I barely go a mile or two.

I don't see us automating any fun out of it because there isn't any fun left.

When I look around at other drivers they're not driving. They're too busy with their cell phones, or their gps.

Right now I do use autopilot features as a bit of a safety net since they're not good enough on their own, but I can't wait to hand the keys over to our robotic overlords.

In a lot of ways driving a car with autopilot is like teaching your replacement, and I'm okay with that.

That doesn't mean I won't enjoy driving in a simulator or on a track day with a drivers car.

The other reason that I want automated driving is I don't believe car ownership is really sustainable. It's an incredible amount of waste, and there are just too many people in this world that want access to a vehicle.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Apologies if I offended anyone.

The only person you've offended is yourself at age 80 when your kids take your keys away.

What are you going to then? Huh?

Haha. My mom desperately wants automated cars. I keep telling her to use uber, but she still has this weird illusion that she's giving up freedom. The reality is she would gain freedom, but she's stubborn.

Oh, and you forgot about hacking. It's going to be really fun taking a nap in your autonomous car and then suddenly waking up in completely the wrong city because of some script kiddie.

 

[GoTslaGo]

I am definitely ordering Auto Pilot on my next Tesla.

When I bought our current Tesla I made it clear to my folks that a big reason why was for the Auto Pilot. I planned on testing AP for them to see how autonomous it is. They are older than @Intl Professor and now have restricted mobility, both practically and legally.

The way I see it, the more I drive with AP, the more Tesla learns and improves. Not just for my car, but for all Teslas. This goes for the next iteration of AP as well (which I plan to get). Hopefully this will bring us closer to a Tesla that I can confidently buy for my folks to drive them around and give them back some freedom. And as I see it, hopefully give myself a back up plan for my own future when I'm their age.

PS--

Maybe we should start a nickname for autonomous vehicles instead of typing the whole thing out. I figured level 4-5 (fully autonomous) could be called Auto Autos, or Auto^2 (Auto-Squared) or Auto2 (Auto-two). Easier to type! Any other thoughts?

 

[AustinPowers]

I think I may definitely be in the minority here, but I just don't get the huge demand for
autonomous personal vehicles.
...
Secondly, I think with autonomous, or partially autonomous vehicles, we will get a "dumbing down" of the driving skill of the driving population. If the car starts taking over more and more of the driving job, then the person behind the wheel/yoke/touchscreen slowly loses his/her edge and ability to react to one-off situations that computers can not handle. As Elon said, there are 8 billion corner cases to figure out with Autonomous vehicles.
Just as I feel driving an automatic transmission takes your attention away from your driver-car-road relationship, driving a semi- or fully-autonomous vehicle will also take away your connection and full attention to the road.

According to the poll results, you are indeed in the minority, but I am right there with you. I voted "no" as well.

Remember, most of the users here seem to be the tech-savvy (otherwise many wouldn't be interested in a Tesla in the first place), so you can expect them to be pro new tech.

I otoh am oldschool, even though I love electric cars. When it comes to driving, I want to be the one doing it, as I enjoy it just like you do.
I can of course see the value of (T)ACC in some situations like traffic jams, but that's about it. Even on long Autobahn drives I don't feel relaxed with (T)ACC activated. Too many dangerous situations that fall into the category of some of those 8 billion corner cases.

I just feel safer when I am in control of my vehicle instead of an AP. My recent Model S test-drive confirmed me in this. While it was a cool novelty feature to see that the car drove itself, even in that short drive the AP made so many small mistakes and got me into situations where it was good that I kept the hands near the steering wheel and the foot at the ready at all times. And honestly, if I have to take that much caution to be able to use the AP in the first place, it is of no use in what it is supposed to do, which is allow me to be more relaxed while driving. Sure, the system(s) will learn and get better. But as long as there are other cars (and trucks, buses, farm or construction machinery etc.) on the roads that are driven by god-knows-who, I will not feel confident in any kind of AP.

I also agree with you about the "dumbing down" factor. I mean for a start, look at all the accidents caused by people with automatic transmission cars, when they charge full throttle into a restaurant or plow through a carpark. That is much easier to avoid when you have learned / know how to / must manually choose a gear and juggle with clutch, throttle and brake all the time. Sure it's not as convenient, but it keeps you alert and much more "integrated" with the car and its workings. The more you automate, the more it takes away from the art of mastering a craft - that is not just a fact when it comes to driving by the way.

 

[theboom1]

I am definitely ordering Auto Pilot on my next Tesla.

When I bought our current Tesla I made it clear to my folks that a big reason why was for the Auto Pilot. I planned on testing AP for them to see how autonomous it is. They are older than @Intl Professor and now have restricted mobility, both practically and legally.

The way I see it, the more I drive with AP, the more Tesla learns and improves. Not just for my car, but for all Teslas. This goes for the next iteration of AP as well (which I plan to get). Hopefully this will bring us closer to a Tesla that I can confidently buy for my folks to drive them around and give them back some freedom. And as I see it, hopefully give myself a back up plan for my own future when I'm their age.

PS--

Maybe we should start a nickname for autonomous vehicles instead of typing the whole thing out. I figured level 4-5 (fully autonomous) could be called Auto Autos, or Auto^2 (Auto-Squared) or Auto2 (Auto-two). Easier to type! Any other thoughts?

But do you still want to be able to drive when you want?

According to the poll results, you are indeed in the minority, but I am right there with you. I voted "no" as well.

What poll are you talking about? Any poll I have seen, hardly anybody want's to take away the ability to drive. and no im not just talking about the one i made.

Yours is an unpopular opinion for people who like to live. Over 40k US Citizens die each year in auto accidents, and 1.3M globally die each year. The vast majority are driver error. When autonomy is shown to be significantly safer than human driving, which looks like it will happen in my lifetime, I will have no problem handing over the steering wheel to the robots. People still like to ride horses, and in the future people will still like to drive cars, but I am thankful that my kids and grandkids will be safer on the roadways as a result of this amazing technology.

There are ways to prevent auto deaths that are not banning human driving completely.

 

[weak_pig]

As a tired parent juggling work, family and kids, and the only person in my family who drives, sometimes I get really sick of driving and would rather not be the family chauffeur to ferry everyone around.

If true self-driving comes around, it would be so much more convenient if I could instruct my tesla to send my kids and wife to the shopping mall or send my visiting 'out of town' parents home, and come back on its own when done - all without having me in the car. Instead, I could relax at home and enjoy my private time.

To me, that would be really awesome.

 

[GoTslaGo]

But do you still want to be able to drive when you want?

Funny you ask that. I've driven so much in my life I've gotten pretty ambivalent about driving anymore. When I was younger I didn't even have cruise control so it was really driving... I used to love driving for the sake of driving. Cross country trips, no sweat. 24 hour runs, no sweat. Even got a job in high school paying practically nothing so I could drive (great to learn stick shift in a company car). In retrospect I must have put way too much carbon in the atmosphere for one person...

Guess I wouldn't want to lose the ability to drive the car myself, but after watching my parents age and become more home bound, if given a choice for 100% autonomy or nothing (well dependent upon others) at their age. I'd have to go with 100% autonomy.

I feel similar to @weak_pig (although not being the only one to drive) otherwise, in that most of my driving now is just going to work and shuttling family around. Maybe when my kids are older and we want to go places, that itch for driving might return.

But by then AP will be better, and I have to admit I enjoy watching over the car as it drives itself, rather than drive myself. Almost like watching my kids do stuff and helping out when needed. That being said, I still see the twinkle in my kids' eyes about driving at least...

 

[theboom1]

Guess I wouldn't want to lose the ability to drive the car myself, but after watching my parents age and become more home bound, if given a choice for 100% autonomy or nothing (well dependent upon others) at their age. I'd have to go with 100% autonomy.

I have seen a few people say that. That if they have to choose between 100% self driving and not that they would choose shelf driving. But what I'm saying is why would you have to choose? I and others provided ways that can compromise in the middle and can have all the benefits of a self driving car and it doesn't get rid of the ability to drive.

It is completely foolish to say that the only way to solve our car related issues is to completely ban driving.

As a tired parent juggling work, family and kids, and the only person in my family who drives, sometimes I get really sick of driving and would rather not be the family chauffeur to ferry everyone around.

If true self-driving comes around, it would be so much more convenient if I could instruct my tesla to send my kids and wife to the shopping mall or send my visiting 'out of town' parents home, and come back on its own when done - all without having me in the car. Instead, I could relax at home and enjoy my private time.

To me, that would be really awesome.

Why can't you do that in a car that still has the option to drive? So you can when you want/need to?

 

[weak_pig]

Why can't you do that in a car that still has the option to drive? So you can when you want/need to?

I never said in my post that I want to give up my ability to drive... I just said it would be convenient for me to perform certain mundane tasks when true self-driving comes around.

 

[GoTslaGo]

I have seen a few people say that. That if they have to choose between 100% self driving and not that they would choose shelf driving. But what I'm saying is why would you have to choose? I and others provided ways that can compromise in the middle and can have all the benefits of a self driving car and it doesn't get rid of the ability to drive.

It is completely foolish to say that the only way to solve our car related issues is to completely ban driving.

Why can't you do that in a car that still has the option to drive? So you can when you want/need to?

For my folks, it's not their choice.

It's nature. Advanced age. Worsening vision. Loss of hearing. Numbness, lack of coordination, etc... Then there's the legal system. There are more and more, unfortunately, justifiable restrictions are being placed on elderly drivers to protect the public and themselves. Statistically elderly drivers have a higher rate of death from even minor accidents, even ones where they are at fault. Some cannot even tolerate the G-forces due to their physiology (sudden stop/starts can shear the lining or just tear their aorta and kill them).

We may not think it will happen to us, but we can never predict what will happen in the future. I personally would never want to lose the ability to drive. I love the mix that my current Tesla gives us. AP when I want it. No AP when I do not. My father never wants to not drive, but he knows he can't keep doing it. He asked a while back about getting a Tesla after watching me use AP. I had to dissuade him because I know it's not what he is looking for and needs. He needs level 4-5.

I do think your shadow driver proposal is a good idea especially if we are ultimately going to move to level 4-5 autonomy. It will help transition people in that direction, and if coded well (or set up with limited AI) would be really seamless. Theoretically it could even be full autonomous with a driver learning feature that could give you the illusion of driving... boy would that be a mind-f***.

So I do not want a world of 100% autonomy or nothing, and neither does Elon. He specifically mentioned that his goal with AP is as an assist, and we should always have the freedom to do our own driving. Hence he never wants to give up the steering wheel, unlike Google.

Unfortunately, unless we can solve issues of aging and mortality, that binary decision may ultimately be the only choice we have.

 

[Nikxice]

Autonomous vehicles will likely become the norm, but they'll also take years to be accepted across all factions of society. There's plenty of ammo for NHTSA to encourage auto manufacturers to push for new technologies. Human behavior won't change quickly enough to fix the issues at hand. Distracted, drowsy, and even elderly driving just don't have the same negative public perception as driving drunk. The statistics for 2015 US traffic fatalities were recently released. They show a dramatic 7 percent rise from 2014, over 35,000 dead, a significant trend reversal after years of progress. The early numbers for 2016 are even more sobering. Between January and June more than 19,000 killed, now back over 100 people a day. By doing nothing, we'll just continue to demonstrate the definition of insanity on our roads every day. When all new vehicles are equipped with even some basic tools such as AEB and lane departure warnings, thousands of people will get to live.

 

[theboom1]

Autonomous vehicles will likely become the norm, but they'll also take years to be accepted across all factions of society. There's plenty of ammo for NHTSA to encourage auto manufacturers to push for new technologies. Human behavior won't change quickly enough to fix the issues at hand. Distracted, drowsy, and even elderly driving just don't have the same negative public perception as driving drunk. The statistics for 2015 US traffic fatalities were recently released. They show a dramatic 7 percent rise from 2014, over 35,000 dead, a significant trend reversal after years of progress. The early numbers for 2016 are even more sobering. Between January and June more than 19,000 killed, now back over 100 people a day. By doing nothing, we'll just continue to demonstrate the definition of insanity on our roads every day. When all new vehicles are equipped with even some basic tools such as AEB and lane departure warnings, thousands of people will get to live.

With my shadow mode idea or something similar we can solve the issue you just said......while still letting people drive. I believe that if you cause an accident, you deserve whatever happens to you.

 

[malcolm]

Rhetorical: If you enjoy driving, how much attention are you paying to your driving vs the enjoyment part? Technical vs experiential

I can imagine a concert pianist enjoying a live performance in the moment but a piece of concert music never varies as much as weather or traffic on a familiar, regular commute.

I'm not sure that even when I think I'm concentrating, that I am concentrating on the "best" part of the activity. In this case, I'm focused on "driving" and always assume "vehicle safety" follows automatically.

I guess an interesting exercise would be a live commentary / talk to yourself out loud as you drive; upcoming items: curves, dips, junctions etc along with cars in the immediate vicinity as well as your speed/ gear choice/ vehicle position

Forces more of your brain to think about technical/ safety stuff.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I absolutely love to drive

Me too ... but ... !!

My speed used to creep up on highway, limit here is 70MPH, police are unlikely to stop you below 80MPH and "Consequences" of being caught below 100MPH are "tolerable" (Fine + Points), so my thought process was probably "its OK, and I can get there sooner"

Now, with autopilot, I stick to the speed limit. Of course I could do that with Cruise Control alone, but once I've engaged ACC I'm only left doing the steering and looking out for trouble, so might as well use auto-steer too and then I can spend 100% of my effort looking out for trouble.

I would ask if everyone has still paid 100% attention while on AutoPilot

I do, or I think I do! For that reason, and belt & braces, I do keep my hands on the wheel at all times. But ... when I want to change something complicated on the dashboard - something that takes a couple of seconds - I'm a lot better off now, with AP running, than in the old days when I used to balance a map on my lap, or then some years later would hold my SatNav up in my eye-line so I could "watch the road WHILST programming the SatNav"

My recent Model S test-drive confirmed me in this

I was very uncomfortable with AP in my initial drives, interrupting it constantly as I didn't have confidence in how it would behave. I didn't even try it during the test drive because I felt that, being new to the car as a whole, I was at significant risk of needing to react and taking the wrong action, because controls / car were unfamiliar. I still select N from time to time when i need the wipers!

I have a drive I do quite often to the kid's concert 90 minutes away. When we return home we usually leave around 10PM, and pretty much always, in the past driving ICE, I would be fighting tiredness for the last 10 miles on the highway. Now with AP I haven't had a single incident where that has happened, I put it down to needing less of "me" to drive the car on AP, even with my hands on the wheel all the time, than back in the Fossil Days.

I'm not comfortable with how close to the inside lane AP drives (but I don't see other threads saying this, so maybe it is just me / my car / narrower UK lanes), or the risk that I think that it is engaged when it isn't, or that AP and my instinctive reactions might be sub-optimal one day, and I am attentive and still take over quite often (compared to the threads I read where people writer that they drive ramp-to-ramp without intervening) ... but I think it is way better for steady-state driving than me driving manually.

When opportunity provides my recommendation would be that you take a longer test drive.

why would you have to choose?

Once AP is predominant the biggest risk is from people driving without it. How many DUI accidents are there a year? Seems to me that I frequently hear/read that Alcohol is a factor in the majority of accidents, so if I have that right then if all those people were using AP that would be a huge benefit. People thinking that they are better drivers than AP will become the only menace on the roads. When that becomes the case then insurance will take a dim view of anyone driving a car in non-AP mode and cars not having AP fitted.

When we have guests for dinner my "sense" is that many of them drink more alcohol than they should. Sure, all couples have a designated driver who only drinks a modest amount, but I doubt all of them are "legal". We live in a rural location, so risk is lower than, say, highway driving, but even so ...

For me: roll on AP