[Update: It happened] Track Mode not happening for P3d-

[caskater47]

Only when you win, you admit it was a gamble.
Before that, it was a constitutional right.



Though I am with you and it boggles my mind how haphazard they are at their decisions.
I would buy tickets to their meetings where they make decisions.

Tesla absolutely couldn’t communicate their way out of a wet paper bag with a ginzu knife.

They get away with what they do because their hotness exceeds their craziness.

Constitutional right seems a bit strong. I still stand by my prior statements that I expected all Performance versions of the car to have properly upgraded brakes as that is industry standard practice when you buy such a car. They misled and in some cases lied about what the car did and didnt have to customers like me. That's on them.

Thankfully they seem to be making good on it at least. Providing free retrofits instead of cash refunds would have still been the preferred way to make us whole but now that they're basically "fixing" everything via software it furthur proves my initial guess that the value of PUP was never really worth it in the first place.

 

[StealthP3D]

For the AC stuff if running the cooling "overclocked" to put off power reduction longer all the time didn't put more wear on the system it would always do it by default. The fact you have to turn that on specifically, and in a way that repeatedly tells you it's only for brief use at the track, makes it clear it's putting added wear on the system and not intended for the full-time use Perry plans to do with it.

My take on this is that "overclocking" is not going to hurt the cooling system, it just runs it outside of its efficiency sweet spot (takes a lot more power for a little more cooling). The car was designed to use electricity efficiently, over-clocking just says we don't care if the BTU/kW drops way down, we just want more cooling.

Now- if they means it fails much sooner- or only very slightly sooner- than running it in spec- we won't know that for a while (possibly a long while unless there's more people like Perry who only ever drive at WOT) but it doesn't change the fact running a part above spec, full time, will reduce service life.

No doubt, running a pump harder will reduce its service life. But if the pump is already rated to last far longer than the warranty period, it won't matter. I don't think we will see too many Model 3 owners replacing their A/C pumps (or pump drive motors) even after the warranty expires, even those who have 15-20 track days/year. I would be more concerned about the additional load put on the battery, not from over-clocking the A/C, but from tracking the car!

 

[MrMannilow]

Set to 50%, leave plugged in, is best practice.

you can set the % back up to what you really need the day before you're getting back via the app

Great thanks! 50 it is. 2 weeks is longest I'm away so that drain even if I left it unplugged would be fine.

 

[daniloreyes]

Sad but it seems the track mode for the PUPless car will be limited. I'm sure they won't let us travel to 162 mph with lesser wheels/brakes. So even if I install better brakes (on order ) and wheels (done ) they won't allow it. So you know, Tesla (Service Center) will not sell the front/rear OEM brakes to us as it needs the front hub too. And since our cars are not PUP equipped we are not allowed to order it either.

 

[Msjulie]

@daniloreyes I don't think that's true, other than perhaps top speed. My car's notes specifically call out that the behavior is impacted by the condition of tires and brakes. Given my brakes are upgraded, they should resist heat fading as well as?/better? than the OEM Performance brakes so I would expect no "lesser" performance because the brakes are not OEM. Tires are another thing though as I did not put equivalent or better (than P3D+) tires on the car.. I expect the software is going to *do the right thing* and behave based on the feedback the car provides while in track mode, as brakes and tires wear, temperatures effect tire and brake performance, etc.

Caveat, I only just got the update yesterday and don't have immediate plans to put the car on a track to confirm any of this .. just makes sense to me.

 

[caskater47]

Sad but it seems the track mode for the PUPless car will be limited. I'm sure they won't let us travel to 162 mph with lesser wheels/brakes. So even if I install better brakes (on order ) and wheels (done ) they won't allow it. So you know, Tesla (Service Center) will not sell the front/rear OEM brakes to us as it needs the front hub too. And since our cars are not PUP equipped we are not allowed to order it either.

The press release announcing the bump to 162 said Model 3 Performance. Legally that must include Stealth. I don't think they're stupid enough to try and exclude anything from us any longer. I expect full software parity moving forward.

 

[caskater47]

The press release announcing the bump to 162 said Model 3 Performance. Legally that must include Stealth. I don't think they're stupid enough to try and exclude anything from us any longer. I expect full software parity moving forward.

Also note that when they offficially launched Track Mode they clearly stated it was PUP only. So they clearly are aware of the implications of their words. I have no reason to believe they will leave us out.

 

[astrowunder]

YAAAAAS Updating now...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Huh... I'd have sworn there were folks insisting there'd be no difference and nothing in the design or programming would've been specific to the P3D+ items...

Really splitting hairs here!

I marked this funny because from the note you quoted in the install screen, it appears there is no difference in the design or programming for the P3D Stealth release. In general people did not quibble with the idea that the non-PUP items on the Stealth would lead to reduced endurance and performance in track mode (since that is also the case without track mode!).

I guess it comes down to what you mean by “designed for”. It’s hard to argue it wasn’t designed for P3D+, since that is what Tesla says, so that is definitely true. Not sure what relevance that has though! With proper tires I’d expect very comparable (or better if the tires are better) performance with the Stealth until the brakes burn up. And with much better brakes a Stealth will probably perform better than a P3D+ in every way.

Guess we will see. Maybe.

 

[GregD60]

Sad but it seems the track mode for the PUPless car will be limited. I'm sure they won't let us travel to 162 mph with lesser wheels/brakes. So even if I install better brakes (on order ) and wheels (done ) they won't allow it. So you know, Tesla (Service Center) will not sell the front/rear OEM brakes to us as it needs the front hub too. And since our cars are not PUP equipped we are not allowed to order it either.

The tires really shouldn't be a problem for the top speed. The stock 18" tires are a 'W' speed rated tire which is rated for 168 MPH. I really don't see brakes being an issue either. The base brakes are more than capable of hauling the car down from max speed at least once. It's the using them hard repeatedly, like on a race track, that required the upgraded brakes of the PUP.

 

[dww12]

I think a lot of the RWD folks would be happy with aggressive cooling and less intrusive TC.

Yeah, that would be instant $$. Maybe $1000? & Yea!

 

[daniloreyes]

The tires really shouldn't be a problem for the top speed. The stock 18" tires are a 'W' speed rated tire which is rated for 168 MPH. I really don't see brakes being an issue either. The base brakes are more than capable of hauling the car down from max speed at least once. It's the using them hard repeatedly, like on a race track, that required the upgraded brakes of the PUP.

I might not explained well what I wanted to say, the nonPUP car does not have the same top speed. I wanted to mention that it is unlikely that they unleashed the top speed. There is no way the software knows you replaced the tires (other than at lower speeds loosing traction). But in a straight line they must assume you have the stock wimpy tires.

So you know, they knew the car felt unstable with the 18"s and all weather ties. The fact that the tires resist the heat up to 168 does not state they are stable at that speed. (actually at 80mph they felt unstable for my car.)
I just got the update and if I get to a long enough track we will see.

At least the track mode will allow me to autocross better.

 

[Knightshade]

You might not have read what I wanted to say, the nonPUP car does not have the same top speed. I wanted to mention that it is unlikely that they unleashed the top speed. There is no way the software knows you replaced the tires (other than at lower speeds loosing traction). But in a straight line they must assume you have the stock wimpy tires.

Uh... the RWD and AWD non-P has a lower top speed than either, and the same tires as the nonPuP performance car... so that has nothing to do with the tires obviously.

There's no reason at all behind the top speed limits other than another artificial way to show the more expensive version of the car is "faster"

 

[mswlogo]

I left it plugged in at home, so charging wasn't a problem. I had been driving around the day before, so I set it to 50%. I was pretty cold last week, highs only in the 20s.

When I got home last night and connected, I was at 145 miles, so not much loss at all.

You only lost 10 miles over a week? I lose more than that over a weekend (because of it wanting to wake up and run the pumps, radio amps, massage the charge port for 6 hour stretches every 24 hours). That really eats the battery at around 2 mph.

Was that a full week 7 or a business trip week 4.5 days?

 

[daniloreyes]

Uh... the RWD and AWD non-P has a lower top speed than either, and the same tires as the nonPuP performance car... so that has nothing to do with the tires obviously.

There's no reason at all behind the top speed limits other than another artificial way to show the more expensive version of the car is "faster"

LOL yes but they do not have the same power to be able to loose control as easy.

 

[Knightshade]

LOL yes but they do not have the same power to be able to loose control as easy.

Most available data (1/4 mile data especially) says yes, they really do (at least between AWD and P- RWD clearly has significantly less than either)... nearly all the power difference is below 60 mph.... and neither is traction limited even AT 60, let alone 120 or more when it's long past peak torque.

 

[GregD60]

I might not explained well what I wanted to say, the nonPUP car does not have the same top speed. I wanted to mention that it is unlikely that they unleashed the top speed. There is no way the software knows you replaced the tires (other than at lower speeds loosing traction). But in a straight line they must assume you have the stock wimpy tires.

So you know, they knew the car felt unstable with the 18"s and all weather ties. The fact that the tires resist the heat up to 168 does not state they are stable at that speed. (actually at 80mph they felt unstable for my car.)
I just got the update and if I get to a long enough track we will see.

At least the track mode will allow me to autocross better.

Where do you get that "they knew the car felt unstable with the 18"s and all weather ties"? Also, the idea that the stock tires are unstable at 80 MPH makes no sense. If that were true, Tesla would never have put them on cars with speed limiters that kick in at 145 MPH and 155 MPH for the LR AWD and Performance models respectively. There are a lot of possible reasons why your car may have felt unstable at 80 MPH, but the type of tire isn't one of them in this case.

 

[caskater47]

Where do you get that "they knew the car felt unstable with the 18"s and all weather ties"? Also, the idea that the stock tires are unstable at 80 MPH makes no sense. If that were true, Tesla would never have put them on cars with speed limiters that kick in at 145 MPH and 155 MPH for the LR AWD and Performance models respectively. There are a lot of possible reasons why your car may have felt unstable at 80 MPH, but the type of tire isn't one of them in this case.

I drive 80mph regularly as that's the flow of traffic in SoCal. I never once felt the car was unstable at this speeds in the stock wheels/tires. Quite the contrary the car is butter smooth and rock solid.

 

[mswlogo]

@daniloreyes I don't think that's true, other than perhaps top speed. My car's notes specifically call out that the behavior is impacted by the condition of tires and brakes. Given my brakes are upgraded, they should resist heat fading as well as?/better? than the OEM Performance brakes so I would expect no "lesser" performance because the brakes are not OEM. Tires are another thing though as I did not put equivalent or better (than P3D+) tires on the car.. I expect the software is going to *do the right thing* and behave based on the feedback the car provides while in track mode, as brakes and tires wear, temperatures effect tire and brake performance, etc.

Caveat, I only just got the update yesterday and don't have immediate plans to put the car on a track to confirm any of this .. just makes sense to me.

#1) It's hard to know if the wording means it's "hard coded" and somehow limited.

#2) That the user will be physically limited without PUP tires and brakes and the system will sense that the brakes are heating up or responding less and tires are slipping more and automatically throttle things back (as it may normally do even if it had PUP equipment on a different scale).

#3) Or that it just means you're own your own and it's a warning that you may be pushing the NON PUP brakes and tires harder than they were designed for.

My guess is, it's the same code (and parameters) and they did nothing special for P3D- (of course that's what I wish for too ). Since it probably is a dynamic system and even track mode with PUP it's partly up to the driver how hard he wants to push things. It's just those limits will get hit sooner with Non PUP equipment.

However, I would highly expect the top speed of non PUP to stay in effect (145 mph, maybe +7 mph). That is partly what PUP owners paid extra for. How often do folks hit that top speed at the track?

I'm sure we'll know soon when a P3D- (with after market wheels and brakes) and a P3D+ OEM go head to head at the track

 

[Perry]

Sad but it seems the track mode for the PUPless car will be limited. I'm sure they won't let us travel to 162 mph with lesser wheels/brakes. So even if I install better brakes (on order ) and wheels (done ) they won't allow it. So you know, Tesla (Service Center) will not sell the front/rear OEM brakes to us as it needs the front hub too. And since our cars are not PUP equipped we are not allowed to order it either.

I don't think there is any truth in this. P3D- will not be artificially limited in any way. The software is the same for both. Track mode limits (adjusts its performance characteristics) based on constant assessment of conditions from its sensors not based on declared hardware. So in other words it may limit a P3D+ more if it has glazed rotors and warn out pads than a P3D-. Or it could also limit a P3D- less if its got better after market parts than the P3D+ stock. That's how good software works. It's adaptive.

If I were to speculate, I would say that it is very likely that the top speed of the P3D- has also been increased to 165mph. Now that the P3D- is no longer sold there is no reason to maintain the bifurcation of the firmware between the P+ and the P- because that was strictly a marketing decision to push people to buy the P+. Since that is no longer the case it makes more sense, from a software development side, for Tesla to treat all Performance models the same going forward. I am certain this will be proven true the next time someone has a chance to test the top speed of the P-.

Similarly, I think Track Mode requires zero changes to make it work with AWD. Withholding TM from AWD is again another marketing decision used as a differentiator, not a deficiency in AWD's abilities, especially when the hardware is identical to the P- and only held back by a software bit. This is why I don't think TM will be released for AWD although there is no technical obstacle or any more development required in doing so.