Update to the Supercharger network policies

[FlatSix911]

FWIW, 400 kWh at my Off Peak rate (when I'd charge at home) is worth $55.32 to me.
I only Supercharge on road trips (never locally), and in 2015 I used 1,324 kWh at Superchargers.

I was kind of expecting this, and think it is sane and reasonable.
The free yearly allocation they mention is still very generous in my opinion, and so far sounds like it won't change policy for current owners.

Really? $55 is generous? That's like an ICE dealer giving you *maybe* one free oil change when you buy the car.

You are looking at this from the wrong perspective ... the free juice model was not sustainable for the long term.
Elon is only interested in following through the his master plan for sustainable transportation ... no soup for you!

 

[googlepeakoil]

It'll be more than half a tank of gas on a "comparable" car which would likely be a BMW 330i with 27 mpg combined city/highway. I wouldn't be surprised at 20-25 cents per kWh. If your only reason to buy a model 3 was "free" charging, then with the recent news, you're going to need find a different car.

Remember the "comparable car" for Tesla could be a 5 litre Jag or series 8 BMW that gets 15mpg!
I expect the cost to be at a price halfway between the cost of gas (petrol) and the price of the electricity bought off the grid at that state. So about $20 for 100kW. This gives them a bit of $ to cover maintenance and expansion. They added "comparable car" to stop people saying - "my other car is a Prius and it's cheaper for me to drive that than fill up my Tesla's account".
Given that the UK has petrol that costs 3x the US price (lots of taxes and VAT) it does in the US (and electricity at 13p/kW - about $0.20/kW) I imagine we'll get screwed and have to pay about £40 for the same kW
At least they're not going to shaft people the way Ecotricity went from free to 30minutes for £6 (on a 50kW charger). Which is actually MORE than petrol. 25kW for £6 = 600p/25 = £0.24/kW - and only that cheap if its running at full capacity and not tailing off your charge.

I'd also expect that Model 3 will get 200kW or less - possibly nothing. They want to incentivise people to get a Model S/ X over a 3. Bigger trunk, bigger car, more power, more free miles is just another method.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Remember the "comparable car" for Tesla could be a 5 litre Jag or series 8 BMW that gets 15mpg!
I expect the cost to be at a price halfway between the cost of gas (petrol) and the price of the electricity bought off the grid at that state. So about $20 for 100kW. This gives them a bit of $ to cover maintenance and expansion. They added "comparable car" to stop people saying - "my other car is a Prius and it's cheaper for me to drive that than fill up my Tesla's account".
Given that the UK has petrol that costs 3x the US price (lots of taxes and VAT) it does in the US (and electricity at 13p/kW - about $0.20/kW) I imagine we'll get screwed and have to pay about £40 for the same kW
At least they're not going to shaft people the way Ecotricity went from free to 30minutes for £6 (on a 50kW charger). Which is actually MORE than petrol. 25kW for £6 = 600p/25 = £0.24/kW - and only that cheap if its running at full capacity and not tailing off your charge.

I'd also expect that Model 3 will get 200kW or less - possibly nothing. They want to incentivise people to get a Model S/ X over a 3. Bigger trunk, bigger car, more power, more free miles is just another method.

I actually think that Model 3 may see a tiered approach.

If you spend the money on an upper-end Model 3, your out-of-pocket expense will rival that of a modestly equipped Model S. Depending on battery size, I wouldn't be surprised to see the smaller battery'd 3's get 200kWh, and the larger ones get 400 kWh.

 

[RAM_Eh]

Ok I have a question for Ontario only.

I was under the impression that any and all energy producers are only allowed to sell power to the local utility or energy board.

I know that the SC don't have solar panels in Ontario yet but are they not planning on re-selling energy....for potential profit or cost recovery? and does this not cross the line?

 

[hingisfan]

Ok I have a question for Ontario only.

I was under the impression that any and all energy producers are only allowed to sell power to the local utility or energy board.

I know that the SC don't have solar panels in Ontario yet but are they not planning on re-selling energy....for potential profit or cost recovery? and does this not cross the line?

Maybe supercharger "credits" get around this issue.

 

[Booga]

Without knowing the price?

1) It's going to be reasonable even if it's higher than what you pay at home. (20-25 cents per kWh is what I expect for the midwest where residential rates are half of that) This is due to time of use pricing whereas consumers don't get that yet and because it's for commercial use. (They'll let rates swing more for them than for customers)

2) The big benefit is in how fast it charges. I want to fill up and go. This is not a routine charging spot and so paying a little more for a better experience is quite alright in my book.

 

[sandpiper]

We are getting a bit OT, but..

Damn right I feel entitled, that is what I expected when I pay luxury car prices, especially 6 figures. I expect a loaner vehicle and/or valet service,and I expect a higher level of service - just like when you go to a joint Toyota/Lexus dealer they provide a MUCH higher level of service to Lexus owners as compared to Toyota owners.

I don't expect to be nickel and dimed - that's why I would expect to get the Supercharging when buying a vehicle that costs as much as $200k - which is what a fully loaded Model X costs in C$.

Sigh. Personally I'm thankful that Tesla has never gone down the road of ostentatious luxury & status. I would feel a little greasy driving something that that is primarily intended to be a rolling display of wealth & ego... and to belittle others.

 

[JeffK]

It's hard to describe the feelings that arise when one drives into a SC with 18 miles of charge left and 150 miles still left to go, only to find twelve SC stations all filled, with locals! And four or five Teslas standing in line. It was amazing to me that people could interpret "free charging forever" into this idea that instead of plugging in at home, they would prefer to block traveler's progress in order to save a few dollars a week. ...I knew it had to change.

I am glad that most owners see this as a good move. Note that it does not affect those 160,000 current owners, some of whom still think they are, as Trump says, "being smart", gaming the system, regardless of other drivers' needs. Humans are inherently selfish, and thoughtfulness is a taught characteristic. I am sorry that Tesla had to do this, but I don't see any other way. They handled it well.

Keep in mind that outside the west coast (which needs more superchargers) most of the US does not face this issue at all. What this does do is decrease the barrier to entry for supercharging as the fee is not included with the price of the car or paid up front in full. In the long term this means increased supercharging not decreased. Especially when Model 3s start rolling off the line, getting to people who live in apartments, etc.

I feel the model is good, but 400 KWh annually is a tad on the low side.

This depends on the person and also driving habits. They say this is 1000 miles but it could be higher.

While this might be low side for a crotchety entitled people who thinks what's given to them for free is not enough, but for the average working person it's perfectly fine statistically speaking. One study said the average miles driven on a recent vacation was just over 500 mi, the bureau of transportation statistics says on average people travel around 214 miles for Thanksgiving and 275 miles for Christmas/New Years.
400kWh would therefore give the average person enough to have one big vacation and two major holidays for free (every year!). It's a great gift from Santa Claus err Elon.

Supercharging cannot cost a little less, or even just half the cost of a tank of gas. It has to be WAY cheaper, otherwise what's the point of buying an EV?

Umm there are tons of benefits of buying an EV... being cheaper to "fill up" is not really one of them and is highly dependent on oil prices.

Consider this: The average US price for electricity is $0.12 per kWh... a P100 costs $12 to "fill up" (in reality it might be closer to $13 due to losses) This gives a range of 315 miles.
Let say you have a 50 mpg Prius... 315mi / 50mpg = 6.3 gallons The average price of gasoline as of right now in the US is $2.207. 2.207 dollars per gallon * 6.3 gallons = $13.90

When you factor in the price difference between the two vehicles then it's obvious that Prius would win hands down in the cost to own and cost to run department. Tires are cheaper too if you want to go there.

If you already have a solar infrastructure in place then cost to charge at home would be virtually free.

The point of buying an EV is not just about the cost to charge. It's about different things for different people. For me it's about fun, safety, aesthetics, silence, reduce dependence on foreign oil, making people around town jealous, being able to warm the car up in the garage in the middle of winter, future self driving capabilities etc., etc. oh and I guess it's good for the environment too but that's not my major driving factor.

 

[Lloyd]

Does this mean that all existing Model S cars just went up a little in resale value - lifetime free Supercharging?

I think it is doubtful that this would transfer to a new owner. Not clear, but it does say 'present owner.'

 

[Garlan Garner]

What this does do is decrease the barrier to entry for supercharging as the fee is not included with the price of the car or paid up front in full..

I'm itching to see the price of a Model S on January 2nd - WITHOUT the baked in SC cost.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I think it is doubtful that this would transfer to a new owner. Not clear, but it does say 'present owner.'

Nothing currently transfers to another owner. I don't like that, but that's how it is.

 

[JeffK]

I'm itching to see the price of a Model S on January 2nd - WITHOUT the baked in SC cost.

Me too, I tweeted to Elon about it. If anything, the Model 3 will be less than the S/X so there's that in the very least.

 

[Booga]

Consider this: The average US price for electricity is $0.12 per kWh... a P100 costs $12 to "fill up" (in reality it might be closer to $13 due to losses) This gives a range of 315 miles.
Let say you have a 50 mpg Prius... 315mi / 50mpg = 6.3 gallons The average price of gasoline as of right now in the US is $2.207. 2.207 dollars per gallon * 6.3 gallons = $13.90

When you factor in the price difference between the two vehicles then it's obvious that Prius would win hands down in the cost to own and cost to run department. Tires are cheaper too if you want to go there.

I appreciate you writing about this, because if the thought process for someone is solely focused on energy costs, the Prius is the better option here - it doesn't require charging infrastructure either, which for some of us, is a challenge. (I live in a condominium and getting charging to my parking spot will not be cheap)

 

[Garlan Garner]

Me too, I tweeted to Elon about it. If anything, the Model 3 will be less than the S/X so there's that in the very least.

Aaahaa....can you please keep us informed?

 

[MXWing]

I'm itching to see the price of a Model S on January 2nd - WITHOUT the baked in SC cost.

I could be wrong on this but I do not believe Tesla will drop the price at all. They will just "reallocate" the SC dollar ingredient somewhere else. It's like Toll Bridge taxes. They are still collecting them way beyond the costs of construction and its ongoing maintenance. Hard to give up money that you are used to having.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Consider this: The average US price for electricity is $0.12 per kWh... a P100 costs $12 to "fill up" (in reality it might be closer to $13 due to losses) This gives a range of 315 miles.
Let say you have a 50 mpg Prius... 315mi / 50mpg = 6.3 gallons The average price of gasoline as of right now in the US is $2.207. 2.207 dollars per gallon * 6.3 gallons = $13.90

Luckily, at BEST, I get 33mpg Highway....better than a lot of cars, but not in the Prius category....it makes the cost to "fill up" a much smaller gap.

My numbers would be (using the 27 City/HWY combined, and the fact I have to put >91 Octane in) = $24.84 to put enough gas in to match a 315 mile range.

so yea...."filling up" a P100D is like 50% off for me.

Of course, we probably won't have a 100kWh battery, and might still approach 315 miles with our top-end battery. And this is with gas at $2.60/gallon.

The higher it goes, the better proposition a BEV becomes for me....YMMV.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I appreciate you writing about this, because if the thought process for someone is solely focused on energy costs, the Prius is the better option here - it doesn't require charging infrastructure either, which for some of us, is a challenge. (I live in a condominium and getting charging to my parking spot will not be cheap)

It would be nice if Elon would do something for the condo and apt dwellers that WILL be purchasing Tesla's after January.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I could be wrong on this but I do not believe Tesla will drop the price at all. They will just "reallocate" the SC dollar ingredient somewhere else. It's like Toll Bridge taxes. They are still collecting them way beyond the costs of construction and its ongoing maintenance. Hard to give up money that you are used to having.

Yes indeed.

That's my point exactly. I'm trying to think of a new feature that they have that will cost the same exact thing as the baked in SC cost - whatever that is..

 

[Garlan Garner]

Luckily, at BEST, I get 33mpg Highway....better than a lot of cars, but not in the Prius category....it makes the cost to "fill up" a much smaller gap.

My numbers would be (using the 27 City/HWY combined, and the fact I have to put >91 Octane in) = $24.84 to put enough gas in to match a 315 mile range.

so yea...."filling up" a P100D is like 50% off for me.

Of course, we probably won't have a 100kWh battery, and might still approach 315 miles with our top-end battery. And this is with gas at $2.60/gallon.

The higher it goes, the better proposition a BEV becomes for me....YMMV.

I don't think it would be selfish to add in to the EV equation: No oil changes: No Emissions: Drastically reduced brake pad replacement. or anything else that accompanies the ownership of an ICE car.

 

[JPP]

Much of the above discussion is predicated on your own local cost for motor fuel and electricity (day or night, solar or not), your past/current experience with an ICE vehicle (vehicle fuel economy/cost per mile), etc. In NoCA, with PG&E, if you charge at peak rates you pay $0.35-0.40/kwH, and off peak (overnight) you pay $0.11/kWh (TOU plan). For me, overnight means I pay about $1.00 for 30 miles of driving. Premium fuel in the SF Bay Area was at one point over $4.00/gallon, now down to about $3.00/gallon (...and will probably go down as the world oil glut increases). You do the math for an equivalent MPG/$ per mile. There is clearly a $$/pain point for many current and future Tesla owners who only focus on cost/mile (cost of fuel). it never ceases to amaze me that at the local Dublin supercharger (usually delivering the highest or 2nd highest number of kW/day of all Superchargers if you look at the Supercharger map on the wall) there are locals who are hogging spots or topping up (...and note that construction is currently underway to add several more stalls to a current 12 stall (plus the existing 3 or 4 HPWC) setup). Tesla clearly knows who is charging up (by VIN), when, where, etc. Like it or not, the system as planned will help all of the above. Is the expected 'pain' of paying some $$ to drive longer distances (exceeding 1000 miles/year) worse than the current pain of overcrowded/abused superchargers? Not for me. YMMV.