Upgrade to FSD $4,000

[Knightshade]

That's not the argument I'm making. It's not whether someone chose one over the other. It's how much they paid for what they chose.

There is such a thing as 'paying too much'. I can tell you I just picked up 2 NEMA 14-50 cables from ebay for $110. Did I pay too much?Yep. However, I can also say it was 'worth it' to me. Someone who knows better will say they're not worth that. In the end, whether I think it's worth it to me or not does not change the fact that I paid too much.

You paid too much if you could've gotten the same thing elsewhere for less at relatively the same level of convience.

Since you CAN NOT do that with FSD that argument doesn't really work here... at all.

FSD would be worth it when the full benefits of it are realized.

FSD is worth whatever the buyer thinks it's worth.

Obviously enough people think it's WORTH $7000 to still be buying it at that price.

When the "full benefits" are realized it'll cost a lot more than 7k too.

It's already allegedly going up to 8k just by adding the level 2 stoplight/stopsign features in a couple months.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Is this you?

Tesla OEM Genuine NEMA 14-50 Adapter Model S X 3 Gen 2 1099344-10-d 32a for sale online | eBay

Nope. But I have a feeling a lot of the resellers work for or troll the Manheim lots as I’ve heard a lot of reports of people buying used 2017/8 and being shorted the 14-50 attachment.

 

[yerEVan]

For all inquiring minds...this Dude did pull the trigger.

Nice. Have you done “come to me” yet? Pretty cool. Out of the 40 times i did it, about 3 times it was extremely helpful. But still pretty cool.

 

[john5520]

You paid too much if you could've gotten the same thing elsewhere for less at relatively the same level of convience.

Since you CAN NOT do that with FSD that argument doesn't really work here... at all.

FSD is still a promise. It's not a 'thing' yet. I and many others paid 7K for FULL SELF DRIVING. We're a ways away from that.

And If you mean Auto Lane Changing and Navigate on Autopilot which were once called EAP, well that brings us right back to my original point: Those 2 features are not worth the 7K for someone looking mainly for highway assist. While they were rolled into a package labeled FSD, they're NOT FSD. That's like Airbus building a fuselage only and calling it an airplane.

If Tesla comes out right now and say they're aiming for only level 3 and anything higher would require new hardware and another $2k, there'll be a riot and more lawsuits than they can count. And all those saying they're satisfied paying 7k for what's there now will be first in line with the pitchforks.

None of this is a rant against Tesla in any way.I believe they're going to deliver an acceptable product as ambitious as it may be.

FSD is worth whatever the buyer thinks it's worth.

Obviously enough people think it's WORTH $7000 to still be buying it at that price.

I agree. I think FSD as in FULL SELF DRIVING is worth the 7k if the promise is kept. That's why I bought it. And I'll be fine up to level 4. Anything higher is unrealistic in the near future.

When the "full benefits" are realized it'll cost a lot more than 7k too.

It's already allegedly going up to 8k just by adding the level 2 stoplight/stopsign features in a couple months.

Well, sure, Tesla will charge whatever they can if people are buying it. However, that in no way lessens their obligations to those who paid less.

 

[nesstezz]

Hi all,

New to the forums, but came across this same predicament with my 2019 M3 SR+. I ordered my M3 SR+ on April 9th, 2019. Originally when I ordered it my options were purchasing Autopilot for $3K, or full FSD for $7K. I opted for Autopilot only. A few days later, they I noticed they started including Autopilot as a standard feature. I ended up calling Tesla, and they said they would refund me the $3,000 by check. I did end up getting a refund via check weeks later. I did not opt for EAP because it was not an option when I ordered. The only option was FSD and I didn't want to drop $7,000 on FSD so I went with Autopilot only. When they car was delivered to me on April 19th, I noticed that the car was equipped with Navigate on Autopilot, as well as Summon, and Parking assist. I logged into my Tesla online account and sure enough, my car said it had Autopilot only. I assumed I got some sort of free trial, but its been almost a year, and I still have EAP.

This week while looking at my Tesla app, I noticed an "upgrades" option, when I clicked, I saw the Rear Heated seats option AND the FSD upgrade for $4k. When I referenced my Tesla online account, my main Details page says I do not have EAP, I only have Autopilot. But when I go to the upgrades page, it says my car has EAP.

So the question remains....should I pull the trigger on FSD for $4k? At this point since I never paid for EAP, it seems like a deal. I'm afraid if I don't purchase it I wont have a chance like this again. Also, what are the odds that they might remove EAP from my car since I never purchased it on a future upgrade audit? I'm on 2020.12.5 and the $4k upgrade still hows up online and in the app. Going back and forth on the decision...$4k isn't chump change. I understand I have most of the features now the EAP, but I would get the HW3 upgrade which is probably worth it in the long run....

 

[JBT66]

Personally I’d get it. When they included AP automatically the price increased 2K. So sounds like you may have gotten a smoking deal if the adjusted price of yours didn’t include it but they still sent you a 3K check. I’d go in for this if we’re you.

Hi all,

New to the forums, but came across this same predicament with my 2019 M3 SR+. I ordered my M3 SR+ on April 9th, 2019. Originally when I ordered it my options were purchasing Autopilot for $3K, or full FSD for $7K. I opted for Autopilot only. A few days later, they I noticed they started including Autopilot as a standard feature. I ended up calling Tesla, and they said they would refund me the $3,000 by check. I did end up getting a refund via check weeks later. I did not opt for EAP because it was not an option when I ordered. The only option was FSD and I didn't want to drop $7,000 on FSD so I went with Autopilot only. When they car was delivered to me on April 19th, I noticed that the car was equipped with Navigate on Autopilot, as well as Summon, and Parking assist. I logged into my Tesla online account and sure enough, my car said it had Autopilot only. I assumed I got some sort of free trial, but its been almost a year, and I still have EAP.

This week while looking at my Tesla app, I noticed an "upgrades" option, when I clicked, I saw the Rear Heated seats option AND the FSD upgrade for $4k. When I referenced my Tesla online account, my main Details page says I do not have EAP, I only have Autopilot. But when I go to the upgrades page, it says my car has EAP.

So the question remains....should I pull the trigger on FSD for $4k? At this point since I never paid for EAP, it seems like a deal. I'm afraid if I don't purchase it I wont have a chance like this again. Also, what are the odds that they might remove EAP from my car since I never purchased it on a future upgrade audit? I'm on 2020.12.5 and the $4k upgrade still hows up online and in the app. Going back and forth on the decision...$4k isn't chump change. I understand I have most of the features now the EAP, but I would get the HW3 upgrade which is probably worth it in the long run....

 

[Skunis]

Nice. Have you done “come to me” yet? Pretty cool. Out of the 40 times i did it, about 3 times it was extremely helpful. But still pretty cool.

Never had a chance to do come to me yet. I need to try it when it gets a little warmer out here.

Just a little update...I tried to schedule service to install my HW3. Got a text back this morning that it is not available and to schedule it for a few weeks after the pandemic "dwindles down". LOL!

I wonder if I will just get contacted that it is available.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that when I check my account and my car details it now lists EAP and FSD under options. That does worry me that the longer I wait for the HW3 upgrade the more chance there is a software audit and this is taken away.

 

[TomB985]

One other thing I forgot to mention is that when I check my account and my car details it now lists EAP and FSD under options. That does worry me that the longer I wait for the HW3 upgrade the more chance there is a software audit and this is taken away.

Tesla has a history of identifying this and stripping the EAP features without warning. That's part of the reason why I purchased the upgrade… My thinking is after receiving payment and issue an invoice for FSD, they'll be more reluctant to take it away. I think I'll be inviting legal action, not that I would be willing to take it that far.

Hi all,

New to the forums, but came across this same predicament with my 2019 M3 SR+. I ordered my M3 SR+ on April 9th, 2019. Originally when I ordered it my options were purchasing Autopilot for $3K, or full FSD for $7K. I opted for Autopilot only. A few days later, they I noticed they started including Autopilot as a standard feature. I ended up calling Tesla, and they said they would refund me the $3,000 by check. I did end up getting a refund via check weeks later. I did not opt for EAP because it was not an option when I ordered. The only option was FSD and I didn't want to drop $7,000 on FSD so I went with Autopilot only. When they car was delivered to me on April 19th, I noticed that the car was equipped with Navigate on Autopilot, as well as Summon, and Parking assist. I logged into my Tesla online account and sure enough, my car said it had Autopilot only. I assumed I got some sort of free trial, but its been almost a year, and I still have EAP.

You, sir, got the deal of the year. Autopilot was never "free", the price of the car was increased to reflect that. At $2500, it was less than what you paid, but certainly not free. Looks like those of us who erroneously got EAP purchased in April, and the $4000 FSD option is also a fantastic deal we are offered by chance.

So the question remains....should I pull the trigger on FSD for $4k? At this point since I never paid for EAP, it seems like a deal. I'm afraid if I don't purchase it I wont have a chance like this again. Also, what are the odds that they might remove EAP from my car since I never purchased it on a future upgrade audit? I'm on 2020.12.5 and the $4k upgrade still hows up online and in the app. Going back and forth on the decision...$4k isn't chump change. I understand I have most of the features now the EAP, but I would get the HW3 upgrade which is probably worth it in the long run....

Tesla has a history of realizing the error in revoking the features without warning, at which point we can be certain the $4000 deal would no longer exist. I imagine there's a chance they would recognize this after purchasing FSD for $4000 and either ask for $3000 more or offer us a refund. I think that's unlikely, though. Extremely liking me that they would sooner or later realize the glitch and the $4000 upgrade would be off the table forever.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Knightshade]

FSD is still a promise. It's not a 'thing' yet. I and many others paid 7K for FULL SELF DRIVING. We're a ways away from that.

This simply is not true

The folks who paid 7k were not promised whatever magical thing you think you were promised.

They were promised a VERY SPECIFIC list of features- nearly ALL OF WHICH ALREADY ARE OUT.

The only 2 remaining promises are:

Stoplight/Stopsign reaction- which is currently in early access testing, so it ALSO exists, just not done yet.

Automatic city street driving (which is very vaguely defined, and the only one nobody in the "public" has been given any access to so far)

And If you mean Auto Lane Changing and Navigate on Autopilot which were once called EAP, well that brings us right back to my original point: Those 2 features are not worth the 7K for someone looking mainly for highway assist

Except, very obviously, they are worth it to to the folks who bought them for that reason.


You keep projecting YOUR opinion of value onto EVERYONE ELSE.

And then mistakenly thinking your opinion is a fact.

It's not.

. While they were rolled into a package labeled FSD, they're NOT FSD.

I mean- they literally are.


The $7000 version of FSD is a specific list of features

Including those 2.

It is not a promise of "car will do 100% perfect level 5 driving[/B]

You seem really unclear on this. But unlike your "value" thing it's an actual fact

You can tell by just going to tesla.com and reading what FSD (the 7k package) actually is:

Full Self-Driving Capability

• Navigate on Autopilot (Beta): Actively guides your car from a highway’s on-ramp to off-ramp, including suggesting lane changes, navigating interchanges, automatically engaging the turn signal and taking the correct exit
• Auto Lane Change: Assists in moving to an adjacent lane on the highway when Autosteer is engaged
• Autopark: Helps automatically parallel or perpendicular park your car, with a single touch
• Summon: Moves your car in and out of a tight space using the mobile app or key
• Smart Summon: Your car will navigate more complex environments and parking spaces, maneuvering around objects as necessary to come find you in a parking lot.
• Coming later this year:
  • Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs
  • Automatic driving on city streets

The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.

That's it.

That's what the 7k version of FSD is.


Not... whatever it is you IMAGINE it is.

5 out of 7 items are already available to the 7k FSD buyers. #6 is in early access testing right now.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Goes to check the app for the 4,923rd time...

Damn

 

[john5520]

This simply is not true


Automatic city street driving (which is very vaguely defined, and the only one nobody in the "public" has been given any access to so far)

What's vague about that? Can automatic mean anything else? Whether the public has been given access to it so far is irrelevant.

Did you see their marketing video? Because that's a clear case of false advertising if none of that is real.

Except, very obviously, they are worth it to to the folks who bought them for that reason.


You keep projecting YOUR opinion of value onto EVERYONE ELSE.

And then mistakenly thinking your opinion is a fact.

It's not.

If 7 features (one being a very ambitious undertaking) are offered for X amount of dollars. And someone paid the X amount for 2 features (2 of which are not new and were offered under a cheaper package), they paid too much. Fact. However they value that is subjective.

I mean- they literally are.

Then the folks with EAP already have FSD. Right?

The $7000 version of FSD is a specific list of features

Including those 2.

Yes and one on the list is automatic city driving.

It is not a promise of "car will do 100% perfect level 5 driving[/B]

You're making a straw man argument. No where have I or anyone (even Tesla on their site) mentioned level 5 as an expectation.

That's unrealistic as I said before. But they are promising automatic city driving.
Why would they even call it full self driving in the first place? Again, is this false advertising?

That's it.

That's what the 7k version of FSD is.

Not... whatever it is you IMAGINE it is.

I imagine it's going to be what Tesla is promising: automatic city driving.

 

[Knightshade]

What's vague about that? Can automatic mean anything else?

Anything else besides... what?

Because it can mean LOTS of things.

The car does AUTOMATIC lane changes today- but it's very far from doing L5 lane changes as just one example of automatic maybe not meaning what you think it means.

Did you see their marketing video? Because that's a clear case of false advertising if none of that is real.

Which one? The 2016 one? As in from YEARS before the current version of FSD existed and which AFAIK has never been tied to the sale of the CURRENT FSD?

Or the April 2019 one? That one doesn't say anything about being L5 either. The best case you could make for that video is L3 since it appears to still have a driver in the seat who is able to take over (just not instantly) and the demo never leaves one specific geographic area.

If 7 features (one being a very ambitious undertaking) are offered for X amount of dollars. And someone paid the X amount for 2 features (2 of which are not new and were offered under a cheaper package), they paid too much. Fact.

You keep using that word.

I do not think it means what you think it means.

if those TWO FEATURES were WORTH IT TO THEM then they didn't pay too much.


For example I've never, ever, used original "dumb" summon... it just happened to come with EAP. But I've not only used the hell out of OTHER EAP features like TACC, autosteer, and Nav-on-AP, they are the reason I bought the car

However they value that is subjective.

Right.

Which includes if they paid an appropriate amount for it or not, based on how much the valued what they got for that money.

Then the folks with EAP already have FSD. Right?

No.

They have NEARLY all the things new-FSD owners have at the moment though.

The one exception being the free upgrade to the FSD computer.

Once the stop light/stop sign thing is broadly released they'll also be missing that too.

Ditto the city street driving when it comes.

Yes and one on the list is automatic city driving.

Which does not mean level 5. Or even level 3.

You have AUTOMATIC lane changes in Nav on AP today- that's not level 5 either.

You're making a straw man argument. No where have I or anyone (even Tesla on their site) mentioned level 5 as an expectation.

What is your expectation then? Exactly and specifically?

(also Tesla absolutely described level 5 as being FSD in the PRE-MARCH-2019 version they sold for $3000... they even mentioned you being able to summon the car with NOBODY IN IT from ACROSS THE COUNTRY- which is level 5 driving.... that's NOT the current version being sold though)

I imagine it's going to be what Tesla is promising: automatic city driving.

Which means... what?

because as pointed out several times now "automatic" can mean more than one thing.

 

[yerEVan]

I remember last year that Elon said we will be able to take a nap while the car drives us to work. That would be available EOY 2019.

I paid $5k. I’m ok with it. As i did not have AP to begin with. So to me, and for what i have and hopefully a few items more, I’m good with what i paid. The benefit of having it drive highway for me NoA, is almost worth it alone. I used to come home wiped out after long rides home from work. Now, i am full of zest and can eat more nachos because of it.

 

[john5520]

Anything else besides... what?

Because it can mean LOTS of things.

The car does AUTOMATIC lane changes today- but it's very far from doing L5 lane changes as just one example of automatic maybe not meaning what you think it means.

L5 changes? Haven't seen that mentioned anywhere on their site as an upcoming feature.

Here is autopilot doing lane changes on its own to maintain a set speed. It's automatic as in, no driver intervention except to let it know what the desired maintenance speed is. There is no ambiguity here.

The best case you could make for that video is L3 since it appears to still have a driver in the seat who is able to take over (just not instantly) and the demo never leaves one specific geographic area.

Well, I'd definitely want to be in the driver's seat when I'm the only one in the car. If that video is level 3, then bring it on.

You keep using that word.

I do not think it means what you think it means.

if those TWO FEATURES were WORTH IT TO THEM then they didn't pay too much.

We'll agree to disagree.

For example I've never, ever, used original "dumb" summon... it just happened to come with EAP. But I've not only used the hell out of OTHER EAP features like TACC, autosteer, and Nav-on-AP, they are the reason I bought the car

My understanding (I could be mistaken) is that back then, to eventually upgrade to FSD, purchasing EAP was necessary. So that alone was a compelling enough reason to get EAP. Plus, it was more palatable financially for someone who didn't want to splurge for the whole package at once, but get it in steps.

In your case, I'm not sure why you bought the FSD add-on, since what it basically offered was for off-highway driving in the future.

No.

They have NEARLY all the things new-FSD owners have at the moment though.

But you claimed Nav-on-Ap and Auto Lane Changing are literally FSD:

I mean- they literally are.

Did you mean to say they were part of FSD, or that they are FSD? Those 2 words aren't usually interchangeable.

Which does not mean level 5. Or even level 3.

And you know this how?

You have AUTOMATIC lane changes in Nav on AP today- that's not level 5 either.

Again, who said anything about L5?

What is your expectation then? Exactly and specifically?

My expectation is to have automated driving on city streets with little intervention. I'll take level 3 at the minimum.

(also Tesla absolutely described level 5 as being FSD in the PRE-MARCH-2019 version they sold for $3000... they even mentioned you being able to summon the car with NOBODY IN IT from ACROSS THE COUNTRY- which is level 5 driving.... that's NOT the current version being sold though)

That may be so, but they've changed their wording and I'm going by what was on the site when I bought the car last month. Obviously, they've come to the realization that level 5 isn't doable in the near future. Besides, being able to summon across country was a really poor example of why one would want level 5.

Which means... what?

The car being able to drive with little intervention on city streets.

because as pointed out several times now "automatic" can mean more than one thing.

Well, it doesn't seem like you made a very good case.

 

[Knightshade]

L5 changes? Haven't seen that mentioned anywhere on their site as an upcoming feature.

...that's the point.

It does "automatic" lane changes today. But they're still L2 (requires always-on driver attention and control)

Now pre-March-2019 FSD? that's a different animal- that's intended to be level 5- but they haven't sold that for over a year now.

Here is autopilot doing lane changes on its own to maintain a set speed. It's automatic as in, no driver intervention except to let it know what the desired maintenance speed is. There is no ambiguity here.

Right- it's a level 2 system.

Which is why your insisting the 7k FSD "promised" any more than that doesn't really fit the facts.

Hence why I asked you to please clarify what you think "automatic" means- exactly.

Well, I'd definitely want to be in the driver's seat when I'm the only one in the car. If that video is level 3, then bring it on.

Driver isn't touching the wheel- and we know the car lacks the HW to otherwise confrim driver attention properly- so it'd be level 3.

It could POTENTIALLY be level 4, but that's highly unlikely. (and If it were capable of 5 there'd be no need for the driver in the seat)

We'll agree to disagree.

I mean, I'm presenting facts- you're free to disagree with em I guess... you do you.

My understanding (I could be mistaken) is that back then, to eventually upgrade to FSD, purchasing EAP was necessary. So that alone was a compelling enough reason to get EAP. Plus, it was more palatable financially for someone who didn't want to splurge for the whole package at once, but get it in steps.

This makes even less sense than your last argument.

Then- it was 5k for EAP, and 3k more for FSD. That FSD money got you zero additional features at the time (in fact it gets you 0 features STILL TODAY other than the HW3 upgrade and showing more things on the screen)


Today it's $0 for basic AP. And 7k for FSD.

If your argument is FSD "is not worth buying" NOW (when it actually adds 5 of its 7 promised features RIGHT NOW) yet somehow it was a better deal when you paid 3k for NO features?

How does that work?

In your case, I'm not sure why you bought the FSD add-on, since what it basically offered was for off-highway driving in the future.

Wrong yet again.

So first- you seemed to JUST argue it was an easier sell back when I bought it.

now you're arguing the OPPOSITE.

Further- the FSD I bought (that hasn't been sold for over a year now) offers on highway features.

Specifically L5 highway driving.

As in- I could roll out of bed, roll into my back seat, go back to sleep, and wake up when the car got to work (which is about 95% highway driving).


Though honestly I'd be fine with just L3 highway- where I can read a book on the drive instead of having to watch idiots in traffic... I'd be ok with getting just that for my 3k.


Almost none of my driving is "city" driving so I don't much care if they ever get around to those features. If they do great- if not- meh.

But you claimed Nav-on-Ap and Auto Lane Changing are literally FSD:

Because they are FSD. So is basic summon. So is autopark. They're all FSD. As in on new cars you don't get ANY of those without FSD. To get ANY of those you have to buy FSD.

Look up the description of the 7k FSD package- you'll see each thing listed that is FSD.

Same way "TACC" is a basic AP feature.

To some people those 2 things might, indeed, be worth $7000.

Just like to older buyers they might've been worth 5k in EAP.

Whereas in both examples "basic summon" is ALSO part of that package too, but might add $0.00 value for the buyer if they'd never use it.. which is the specific example I gave.

I bought EAP for TACC and Autosteer and lane changes. I gave not a crap about basic summon (and advanced didn't even exist at the time).

So people can consider the price of the package entirely worth it even if they only use or value SOME of the features in it.

Did you mean to say they were part of FSD, or that they are FSD? Those 2 words aren't usually interchangeable.

Sure they are.

The upper west side is NYC.

So is the bowery.

So is hells kitchen.

They're all NYC.


Or, hrm, you're from Florida...

Jacksonville is Florida.

So is Orlando.

So is Miami.

So is Tampa.

They're all pretty different individual things- but they're all florida.

And you know this how?

Already pointed that out.

Lane change is currently "automatic" but it's only L2.

Therefore we know for a fact when Tesla says "automatic" they're not promising anything better than L2.

They might certainly, eventually give you more than that. But nothing more is promised by that word.

Again, who said anything about L5?

Well- the original FSD package as sold from fall 2016 through early 2019 was offering an L5 feature set- but we're discussing the new FSD which doesn't.

Hence why I've tried to get YOU to tell me what YOU think the new FSD actually is promising you....because it seems to be a lot more than it's actually promising you.

My expectation is to have automated driving on city streets with little intervention. I'll take level 3 at the minimum.

Well, thanks, FINALLY, for defining it.

As we've covered though- L2 is the best you are promised

I'm sure they're hoping to get higher though.

L3 requires the person in the drivers seat does not have to actively be driving or even supervising the car though.

Unlike L2- you don't have to be paying attention to or monitoring the driving environment- you just have the physically be present, and awake, in case the car realizes it's going into some situation it won't be able to handle and needs to turn back over to you... in a much less immediate fashion than L2 systems where the driver is still responsible 100% of the time for paying attention.


it's VASTLY more likely you'll get L3 on the highway before you do in the city, since there's simply a TON more input, environment, and edge cases to solve for in city driving.

That may be so, but they've changed their wording and I'm going by what was on the site when I bought the car last month. Obviously, they've come to the realization that level 5 isn't doable in the near future. Besides, being able to summon across country was a really poor example of why one would want level 5.

And yet it's one the CEO of Tesla used- on more than one occasion.


Tesla owners, try this at home: ‘Summon’ your car to pick you up, drop you off

In two years, you’ll be able to summon your car from across the country,” Musk told reporters during a Sunday conference call. “If your car is in New York and you are in Los Angeles, it will find its way to you.

That was January 2016 by the way.

It's over 4 years later, and you can't even summon it from the same parking lot you're standing in if you're more than ~200 feet away from it, despite 2 generations of driving computer upgrades and 8 times the cameras the car had when he said that.

The car being able to drive with little intervention on city streets.

Do you consider the current NoA system to be "automatic" highway driving? If so you might be reasonable happy with what you're likely to get.

If not- I hope you're planning to have the car for a long time and are patient.

Well, it doesn't seem like you made a very good case.

Weird- because I gave several specific examples of how "automatic" can mean anything from L2 (the current automatic lane changes NoA offers- which Tesla specifically calls out as automatic) and L5 (the driving cross country with nobody int he car).


So as I said- automatic can mean LOTS of very different things. Even Tesla themselves has defined it differently many times.

 

[john5520]

...that's the point.

It does "automatic" lane changes today. But they're still L2 (requires always-on driver attention and control)

Attention yes, control no. To me, this feature doesn’t sit squarely in either level because under most circumstances, it would complete the change without driver attention. But even at level 3, not paying attention isn’t very smart.

Now pre-March-2019 FSD? that's a different animal- that's intended to be level 5- but they haven't sold that for over a year now.

Right, because it ain’t happening. Hence all the disclaimers.

Right- it's a level 2 system.

Which is why your insisting the 7k FSD "promised" any more than that doesn't really fit the facts.

I simply pointed out what they wrote: automatic driving on city streets and I’ve seen what their highly publicized demo video depicted. And that video is at least one step above level 2.

.

this makes even less sense than your last argument.

Then- it was 5k for EAP, and 3k more for FSD. That FSD money got you zero additional features at the time (in fact it gets you 0 features STILL TODAY other than the HW3 upgrade and showing more things on the screen)

Yet you bought it.

If your argument is FSD "is not worth buying" NOW (when it actually adds 5 of its 7 promised features RIGHT NOW) yet somehow it was a better deal when you paid 3k for NO features?

How does that work?

My argument was it was not worth buying for only these 2 features: Auto Lane Changing and Navigate on Autopilot. It’s definitely worth buying for all the current ones PLUS the promised automatic driving on city streets.

Further- the FSD I bought (that hasn't been sold for over a year now) offers on highway features.

Specifically L5 highway driving.

As in- I could roll out of bed, roll into my back seat, go back to sleep, and wake up when the car got to work (which is about 95% highway driving).

This is what was listed for FSD back on 2016/2017(maybe even 2018)


Tesla Autopilot - Wikipedia


Traffic lights and stop signs recognition

Traffic lights and stop signs response

Automatic driving on city streets

Full Self-Driving Capability


That’s very city centric except the ‘full Self-Driving capability’ which meant it had the hardware to do FSD. As far as offering L5, that’s not clear at all there unless you bought everything Elon music said.. Or maybe you can post a link or something (besides anything with Elon).

To some people those 2 things might, indeed, be worth $7000.

Just like to older buyers they might've been worth 5k in EAP.

Whereas in both examples "basic summon" is ALSO part of that package too, but might add $0.00 value for the buyer if they'd never use it.. which is the specific example I gave.

I bought EAP for TACC and Autosteer and lane changes. I gave not a crap about basic summon (and advanced didn't even exist at the time).

So people can consider the price of the package entirely worth it even if they only use or value SOME of the features in it.

You bought EAP and used 3 of the 4 features. The 3 of which fulfilled the basic purpose of the package. I see no issues there.

That’s vastly different from buying the current 7K FSD for 2 features that barely scratch the surface of what the package was meant to deliver. Big difference.

Jacksonville is Florida.

So is Orlando.

So is Miami.

So is Tampa.

They're all pretty different individual things- but they're all florida.

Didn’t know Miami was the State of Florida. I always thought it was a city in the State of Florida.

Already pointed that out.

Lane change is currently "automatic" but it's only L2.

Therefore we know for a fact when Tesla says "automatic" they're not promising anything better than L2.

No we don’t. Lane changing is just one feature, so your conclusion is highly speculative, unless you have some inside info you’re willing to share.

And their official video demoed a higher level of automation. Even if you take it with a grain of salt, it DID occur.

They might certainly, eventually give you more than that. But nothing more is promised by that word.

Again, we don’t know that.

Well- the original FSD package as sold from fall 2016 through early 2019 was offering an L5 feature set-

Not from what I saw listed. What Musk must have alluded to and what appeared on their actual feature list didn’t match.

L3 requires the person in the drivers seat does not have to actively be driving or even supervising the car though.

Unlike L2- you don't have to be paying attention to or monitoring the driving environment- you just have the physically be present, and awake, in case the car realizes it's going into some situation it won't be able to handle and needs to turn back over to you... in a much less immediate fashion than L2 systems where the driver is still responsible 100% of the time for paying attention.[/quote]

From what I could see, Tesla isn’t very far from that.

That was January 2016 by the way.

It's over 4 years later, and you can't even summon it from the same parking lot you're standing in if you're more than ~200 feet away from it, despite 2 generations of driving computer upgrades and 8 times the cameras the car had when he said that.

Looking at it at face value, it was too good to be true for any rational person to believe it.

Do you consider the current NoA system to be "automatic" highway driving? If so you might be reasonable happy with what you're likely to get.

If not- I hope you're planning to have the car for a long time and are patient

The short answer is yes, as long as they iron out the menacing issues (like phantom braking / incorrect speed etc). I don’t see myself putting total trust in the car anytime soon.

Weird- because I gave several specific examples of how "automatic" can mean anything from L2 (the current automatic lane changes NoA offers- which Tesla specifically calls out as automatic) and L5 (the driving cross country with nobody int he car).

Looking at automatic lane changes on its own, it doesn’t fit squarely into either level 2 or 3. Because it can do it without supervision or attention. And your hand does not have to be on the wheel even though in the video his was.

So as I said- automatic can mean LOTS of very different things. Even Tesla themselves has defined it differently many times.

They demoed the system in their FSD video. That’s the one they seem to publicize the most. It’s the one their SAs share, and it’s on their website. They made it quite clear what their automatic city driving is supposed to be capable of. Now, am I realistically expecting that? No, but I’m still open to the possibility.


·

 

[Knightshade]

Attention yes, control no.

Control YES.

L2 systems by definition require driver CONTROL.

The DRIVER is driving, with aid from the car.

L3 by definition the CAR is driving, not the driver- with a driver available to take that roll with some (but not IMMEDIATE) notice.


Tesla is [B}crystal clear[/B] that the current system including "automatic lane changing" is L2 and the driver is ALWAYS to be in control of the vehicle. 100% of the time.

To me, this feature doesn’t sit squarely in either level because under most circumstances, it would complete the change without driver attention.

It will also hold its speed and lane most of the time without driver attention, but said attention is still required by the parameters, intent, and limitations of the system.

But even at level 3, not paying attention isn’t very smart.

Not needing to pay attention (and thus not ultimately being 'the driver of the car at that moment') is literally the difference between L2 and L3


L2= car can do a lot of specific driving functions, but cant understand environment well enough- so driver MUST be constantly doing that job and ALWAYS ready to IMMEDIATELY take full control of all systems. Human driver is responsible at ALL TIMES for the dynamic driving task.

L3= car can do the ENTIRE dynamic driving task INCLUDING monitoring the environment, in one or more general domains (for example- highway driving)- but still requires a human backup who can, with some warning (not IMMEDIATE TAKE OVER NOW OR DIE like L2) take back over when the L3 car leaves its domain or encounters something it can't properly navigate.


L2 you must always watch the road and environment.

L3 you can be reading a book or watching a movie (but not sleeping or sitting in the back seat like you can with say L5)

I simply pointed out what they wrote: automatic driving on city streets and I’ve seen what their highly publicized demo video depicted. And that video is at least one step above level 2.

And I pointed out "automatic" can mean lots of things.

Like the "automatic" L2 lane changes.

So if you get L2 "automatic" city driving- you got what was promised.

AFAIK that demo video isn't attached to the page where you buy FSD and they were pretty clear at autonomy day when they showed it it was aspirational not "what the car can reliably do today for the general public"

Yet you bought it.

Yup- specifically because of reasons I already mentioned:

1) Free HW3 upgrade
2) It would cost more later (I paid 3k- if I'd waited it'd be 4k today, and likely 5k after the July/August price hike coming)
3) I realistically expected (and still do) that they will at least get to L3 highway for FSD- which again is like 90%+ of my driving and I'd be perfectly happy getting ONLY that out of my 3k

My argument was it was not worth buying for only these 2 features: Auto Lane Changing and Navigate on Autopilot.

But that's not an "argument" it's "an opinion"

One not everyone holds.

You can't seem to accept that despite it being a fact.

It’s definitely worth buying for all the current ones PLUS the promised automatic driving on city streets.

Again, city street driving is basically worthless to me and I'm sure i"m not the only one.

you appear to place a high value on it. That's your opinion.

You're entitled to it- but you're not entitled to insist anyone who holds a different one is objectively wrong.

This is what was listed for FSD back on 2016/2017(maybe even 2018)


Tesla Autopilot - Wikipedia


Traffic lights and stop signs recognition

Traffic lights and stop signs response

Automatic driving on city streets

Full Self-Driving Capability


That’s very city centric except the ‘full Self-Driving capability’ which meant it had the hardware to do FSD

This is simply wrong.

See below.

. As far as offering L5, that’s not clear at all there unless you bought everything Elon music said.. Or maybe you can post a link or something (besides anything with Elon).

How about the actual FSD page from 2018 instead of WIkipedia?

Does a lot more than your wiki description.


Drives in city and highway, with NO action required by someone in the drivers seat.

Not "minimal" action, not "only occasional" action- NO action. Ever.

You can MAYBE make an argument for "almost all circumstances" allowing them to only deliver L4 and keep that promise (since L4 is just L5 that has one or more specific places/conditions it can't work in).

But it's very very clearly above L3 (since NO action is EVER needed from the human in the drivers seat)

You bought EAP and used 3 of the 4 features.

Where you getting 3 of 4? There's also autopark (which I also never use except as a tech demo)

The 3 of which fulfilled the basic purpose of the package. I see no issues there.

I do- you're again projecting what "you" think is the "purpose" of a package onto others.

Some folks have said they got it specifically for basic summon.

Because they own a VERY narrow garage and it's the only good way to get their Tesla in and out.

That's $0.00 in value to me, but a TON of value to THEM.


different people put different value on different features

That’s vastly different from buying the current 7K FSD for 2 features that barely scratch the surface of what the package was meant to deliver. Big difference.

Nope. See above.

The package is "meant" to delivery a specific list of features.

It's already delivered 5 out of 7. With 6 in early release testing.

Again- different people put different value on different features


You're having a lot of trouble accepting that.

No we don’t. Lane changing is just one feature, so your conclusion is highly speculative, unless you have some inside info you’re willing to share.

...what?

Tesla only uses the word "automatic" to describe 2 features.

automatic lane changes
automatic driving on city streets.

We KNOW the first one is L2.

So based on the only info we ACTUALLY HAVE we KNOW Tesla considers L2 to be "automatic"

Not sure where you're getting lost there.

Not from what I saw listed.

Look again now that I've posted the actual description from when it was sold, instead of just a wiki reference.

From what I could see, Tesla isn’t very far from that.

In the city? Tesla is very very very very far from that.

On the highway? Still pretty far until they can:

navigate situations without good lane markings (tons of posts showing current issues with this)

read speed limit signs and understand overpasses to handle phantom braking

recognize cars that are stopped on the side of the road or partly in a lane (the famous smashing into parked firetruck problem)

Handling a lot more highway interchanges where currently NoA says unsupported

and a number of other edge cases that ALL have to be fixed to go from L2 to L3.

Looking at it at face value, it was too good to be true for any rational person to believe it.

So what they explicitly promised a few years ago was "obviously too good to be true" but what you're PROJECTING you THINK they promise now is realistic?

Do they make wine in the same color of rose as your glasses?

Looking at automatic lane changes on its own, it doesn’t fit squarely into either level 2 or 3. Because it can do it without supervision or attention. And your hand does not have to be on the wheel even though in the video his was.

It's explicitly L2 and expliictly requires attention. It tells you this right on the screen.

And yes it does check for hands on wheel,

 

[willow_hiller]

Haven't kept up with the arguments in this thread, but for anyone else who doesn't have $7,000 in cash to immediately drop on FSD, I've got some news.

In China, Tesla is offering FSD financing for current owners. A 3-year interest free loan: Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the 2019-2020 Investors' Roundtable

At $7,000 that would work out to about $200 per month for 36 months. I really hope Tesla considers bringing the same financing to the US; it would make FSD attainable for so many more people.

 

[Knightshade]

Hands off wheel. Foot off gas and brake during lane change = No Control. Attention yes.

Also control- because your hands must be on the wheel

The system tells you this when you turn it on.

So does the owners manual.

So does the fact the "automatic" lane change CHECKS for hands on wheel when you use it.

The point is, it can already do many individual functions without attention

Except, again, it's can't. See above.


You can certainly ignore the actual requirements and directions for a little while and get away with it- but that's WORLDS away from not REQUIRING attention and control.

Yes, and autopilot on the freeway isn’t far from that.

It's incredibly far from that.

I listed 3 or 4 major situations it's incapable of handling in my last post in fact.

Besides, they can’t claim FSD capability (as in take you to work and back home) without being able to drive on city streets. Many people live far from the highway.

They DON'T claim that.

They haven't since they changed to the new 7k FSD in Feb/March 2020.

They ONLY claim FSD gives you:

the 5 features it already does.

Plus the 6th in early access (lights/stop signs)

plus "automatic city driving" which as we know from :"automatic" lane changes isn't a promise of anything higher than Level 2 (hands on wheel, driver maintains control and attention at all times). It MIGHT evolve into better than that- but no promises it will.

So ‘Full Self-Driving capabilities is still there without the detailed, colorful description. But there, nonetheless.

Yes- but what "full self driving" means is explicitly defined today when you buy it.

And it doesn't offer anything other than (I feel we've been over this) the 5 things it already has-

Plus the 6th in early access (lights/stop signs)

plus "automatic city driving" which as we know from :"automatic" lane changes isn't a promise of anything higher than Level 2 (hands on wheel, driver maintains control and attention at all times). It MIGHT evolve into better than that- but no promises it will.


Which is a FAR FAR FAR cry from the previous version of FSD that offered (at least) L4 driving in nearly all circumstances.

Ok, so you added one more useless feature to the list. My point still stands.

I mean- it really doesn't... because your point ignores that EACH feature will have a DIFFERENT value to EACH individual.

Autopark is useless to ME- there's others who've mentioned they use it ALL THE TIME (for parallel parking especially) and as such that feature is "worth" far more to them than to me.

EAP= enhanced autopilot. It says it right there. Summon was rolled in as a nice-to-have, but that’s it.

1000% wrong.

Summon was always an explicitly listed feature of EAP from its launch.


AGAIN you keep projecting imaginary meaning onto the NAME of a package while ignoring the listed contents of the package

Not according to their demo video.

Did you ever see the 2016 video?

It looks just as good.

The actual general-release software still can't REMOTELY do most of what the video shows though.

You keep confusing "gamed demo video" with "actual real life production software"

The point is, it can already do it without hands on the wheel as seen in that video. It did not nag to hold the wheel on that occasion. And I’m sure, he could have checked his email while it was doing it as well.

Except, of course, that software isn't publicly in use.

The public software still explcictly requires hands on wheel, nags when you don't, checking before making "automatic" changes, etc...


WHY do you think that is, exactly?


If the demo software is fully functional- and works like that OUTSIDE the one specific route they planned in advance- why isn't it released?

it’s not a stretch at all to say Auto Lane Change is L3 even with the explicit disclaimers.

Except, it is a huge stretch since it's not, at all, an L3 feature.

If it were your hands wouldn't have to be on the wheel for it to work.

Plus the manual explicitly reminds you several times YOU (not the car) is responsible for monitoring the environment (which wouldn't be true of an L3 feature)

 

[john5520]

Also control- because your hands must be on the wheel

It checks to see that you've touched the wheel at some point, or nags to do it, but during the change your hands do not need to be on the wheel.

This video demonstrates it better:

See: 3:38 and 6:55

You can certainly ignore the actual requirements and directions for a little while and get away with it- but that's WORLDS away from not REQUIRING attention and control.

Well, that’s kinda my point. You can get away with it because it’s capable of actually doing it.

It's incredibly far from that

I listed 3 or 4 major situations it's incapable of handling in my last post in fact..

‘Incredibly’ is an exaggeration, IMO. But only time will tell.

They DON'T claim that.
They haven't since they changed to the new 7k FSD in Feb/March 2020.
They ONLY claim FSD gives you:
the 5 features it already does.
Plus the 6th in early access (lights/stop signs)

Yes- but what "full self driving" means is explicitly defined today when you buy it.

And it doesn't offer anything other than (I feel we've been over this) the 5 things it already has-

Plus the 6th in early access (lights/stop signs)

plus "automatic city driving" which as we know from :"automatic" lane changes isn't a promise of anything higher than Level 2 (hands on wheel, driver maintains control and attention at all times). It MIGHT evolve into better than that- but no promises it will.

Which is a FAR FAR FAR cry from the previous version of FSD that offered (at least) L4 driving in nearly all circumstances.

Also from the current website:

The Future of Autopilot

All Tesla vehicles have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at a safety level we believe will be at least twice as good as the average human driver.

Claiming at least twice as good as the average human driver isn’t trivial.

I mean- it really doesn't... because your point ignores that EACH feature will have a DIFFERENT value to EACH individual.
Autopark is useless to ME- there's others who've mentioned they use it ALL THE TIME (for parallel parking especially) and as such that feature is "worth" far more to them than to me.

1000% wrong.
Summon was always an explicitly listed feature of EAP from its launch.

My mistake. Since summon was available on the model S and X on ap1, I assumed it was rolled into EAP.

AGAIN you keep projecting imaginary meaning onto the NAME of a package while ignoring the listed contents of the package

There is no ambiguity in the name Enhanced Autopilot. Autopilot is and has always been about autonomous driving hence the name. Enhanced doesn’t change that except to denote ‘additions and improvements’ to that core function.

Autopark I could see being useful for someone elderly or disabled, but even so, the percentage of owners actually using that feature has to be tiny. Summon can be useful in a very small set of circumstances, and even then, it’s risky. They could have included these in basic autopilot and not worry about EAP sales.

Did you ever see the 2016 video?
It looks just as good.
The actual general-release software still can't REMOTELY do most of what the video shows though.
You keep confusing "gamed demo video" with "actual real life production software"

Except, of course, that software isn't publicly in use.
The public software still explcictly requires hands on wheel, nags when you don't, checking before making "automatic" changes, etc...

WHY do you think that is, exactly?

Aside from possible unwanted behavior and bugs at this stage of development, there’s Liability. What I think they’ll continue to do as time goes by, is give the driver more control over nags, with disclaimers. Even at level 3 (or higher), they’ll still have to protect themselves and I see disclaimers staying forever unless they design a fully autonomous car (L5) from the ground up..

If the demo software is fully functional- and works like that OUTSIDE the one specific route they planned in advance- why isn't it released?

Regulatory approval and liability would be major reasons. They can't just release that level of automation without possible repercussions. That's partly why we're getting it in little scraps at a time. And it gives them time to test it as well. One size will not fit all.

I never insinuated that the software in the their FSD video video was ready for public release. My references to it has always been to show what it’s capable of. Like I said in another post, I expect to have to babysit.

Plus the manual explicitly reminds you several times YOU (not the car) is responsible for monitoring the environment (which wouldn't be true of an L3 feature)

In our Teslas, as they are equipped today, disclaimers requiring driver attention will be there till they’re ready to be sold or junked. That I can guarantee.