Just as a comment here, we're building a sport wagon model S here in the UK. Kid thee not. Release coming very soon. model 3 is also being reviewed as well. Prototype below. Happy to talk about it.
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US/World ready for a Model 3 station wagon (= Model Y) ?
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- Future Tesla Model Y
Brando
Active Member
Truth be told, we/they are ready for any "great car" that Tesla produces.
Make the best product, and finding buyers won't be your major problem.
Tesla doesn't need to copy/follow anyone at this stage.
Supply is the problem, not demand creation. Not your dream car? You'll have to wait.
Tesla is NOT a marketing company in any traditional sense, right?
Tesla/Elon will judge consumer demand segment, pick their next segment and we expect the best.
Most seem to be guessing Model 3 sized SUV/CrossOver/Liftback/Brake(UK speak for Wagon).
As ICE factories close, Tesla will have to weigh rebuild vs new factories. And it seems building battery factories to insure supply will continue as a fine strategy.
Make the best product, and finding buyers won't be your major problem.
Tesla doesn't need to copy/follow anyone at this stage.
Supply is the problem, not demand creation. Not your dream car? You'll have to wait.
Tesla is NOT a marketing company in any traditional sense, right?
Tesla/Elon will judge consumer demand segment, pick their next segment and we expect the best.
Most seem to be guessing Model 3 sized SUV/CrossOver/Liftback/Brake(UK speak for Wagon).
As ICE factories close, Tesla will have to weigh rebuild vs new factories. And it seems building battery factories to insure supply will continue as a fine strategy.
Brando
Active Member
As a more general philosophical question, would Tesla have been better off taking one more step along the path to affordability, going Roadster -> S/X -> Y -> E. With each step going down in price and up in volume?
Playing devils advocate here, if we imagined the IPace was wearing a Tesla badge and a Y on the trunk lid, was available H1/2018 and priced at up to $70k.
How many do you think they would sell?
Would it have been enough to push the M3 deliveries back one year?
Would it have allowed a more controlled production ramp?
Would it have given more breathing room to build out SpC's and SC's?[/QUOTE]
Seems to me you can extend your warranty [reminder you have 8 years unlimited miles on the drive train].
Your other points above, seems to me, are traditional auto company thinking. That is not Tesla.
Tesla build great products and have yet to meet demand. Production is needed, not delay. Transform [Tony Seba says disruption] is Tesla Primary goal. Specifically Safest, electric powered, quickest/not slow, good/great looking and perhaps the best self driving, we shall see.
Playing devils advocate here, if we imagined the IPace was wearing a Tesla badge and a Y on the trunk lid, was available H1/2018 and priced at up to $70k.
How many do you think they would sell?
Would it have been enough to push the M3 deliveries back one year?
Would it have allowed a more controlled production ramp?
Would it have given more breathing room to build out SpC's and SC's?[/QUOTE]
Seems to me you can extend your warranty [reminder you have 8 years unlimited miles on the drive train].
Your other points above, seems to me, are traditional auto company thinking. That is not Tesla.
Tesla build great products and have yet to meet demand. Production is needed, not delay. Transform [Tony Seba says disruption] is Tesla Primary goal. Specifically Safest, electric powered, quickest/not slow, good/great looking and perhaps the best self driving, we shall see.
Brando
Active Member
Brando
Active Member
Reminder, Tesla platform allows for complete rethinking of auto design. Some consider the Model S very near a Wagon for all practical purposes. ANY Wagon owners care to compare their Model S to their Wagon? That would be interesting. May have to try google search.
Anyway, Tesla need not worry about what niche the model Y fits into, as they will just repeat Model S/X/3 and make one of the world's best vehicles.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
In the UK a station wagon is an estate.
A two door wagon is a shooting-brake.
That is what the current definitions are.
At the turn of the 20th century a shooting-brake was a vehicle specialized in carrying a hunting party and their rifles.
Then it became vehicles built by high-end coach builders from generic chassis.
Today this is a shooting brake. Or a brake for short.
I agree. But the benefit of doing a I-pace styled crossover based on the Model 3 is that it could have been released at the ~same time as the Model 3. Just like the sedans/station wagons are in europe. Audi A4 sedan/allroad. Volvo S90/V90 and so forth.
Elon went for a completely new architecture instead. Very interesting but it means that we have to wait a couple of years. But i guess that that's a part of the Tesla DNA by now
@RobStark I agree with your definition, and almost posted a similar comment.
Indeed if you were to ask someone who drives a 3 Series "Touring", the most common answer you would get is either a 3 series estate or 3 series touring (and on official documentation it would say estate), I can't imagine anyone calling it a 3 series brake.
Now of course it's open to abuse by marketing departments, and so we have things like the Jag XF Sportbrake, and MB CLS Shootingbrake, both in effect traditional 5 door estates/wagons.
@Brando I can compare the S to a wagon, having owned both. The only real difference, is load height. The S's sloping rear end does have some limitations in this regard. Sometimes you may need to lower the rear seats to actually fit something tall in. Sometimes you might also have something more cuboid that won't fit. An example of this I have found personally is a popup marketing stand, ours would fit in our Ford Mondeo (Fusion) Estate, but not in my Model S. These are edge cases, and overall I would say the S is still a very practical car.
On reflection I've owned pretty much every style of car over the years: Pickup, SUV, hatchback, sedan, wagon, minivan. In terms of practicality I would say a minvan with "stow and go" seating is the most practical.
Indeed if you were to ask someone who drives a 3 Series "Touring", the most common answer you would get is either a 3 series estate or 3 series touring (and on official documentation it would say estate), I can't imagine anyone calling it a 3 series brake.
Now of course it's open to abuse by marketing departments, and so we have things like the Jag XF Sportbrake, and MB CLS Shootingbrake, both in effect traditional 5 door estates/wagons.
@Brando I can compare the S to a wagon, having owned both. The only real difference, is load height. The S's sloping rear end does have some limitations in this regard. Sometimes you may need to lower the rear seats to actually fit something tall in. Sometimes you might also have something more cuboid that won't fit. An example of this I have found personally is a popup marketing stand, ours would fit in our Ford Mondeo (Fusion) Estate, but not in my Model S. These are edge cases, and overall I would say the S is still a very practical car.
On reflection I've owned pretty much every style of car over the years: Pickup, SUV, hatchback, sedan, wagon, minivan. In terms of practicality I would say a minvan with "stow and go" seating is the most practical.
Brando
Active Member
Supply/production is the problem - i.e. NOT creating even more demand.I agree. But the benefit of doing a I-pace styled crossover based on the Model 3 is that it could have been released at the ~same time as the Model 3. Just like the sedans/station wagons are in europe. Audi A4 sedan/allroad. Volvo S90/V90 and so forth.
Elon went for a completely new architecture instead. Very interesting but it means that we have to wait a couple of years. But i guess that that's a part of the Tesla DNA by now
Elon has mentioned that basing Model X on S platform didn't work as well as imagined, and in hind sight he should have designed X from a clean slate - this was part of the problem of X ramp up (complexity too, of course). Same for basing Roadster on Lotus - Elon has said they thought they'd save money, but they didn't and the limitations of using/starting with basic Lotus actually cost more.
And now that Elon realizes that the machine (factory) that builds the machine (vehicle) is even more important to bring down costs. So he/Tesla Team will learn from Model 3 and the Model Y will be even more automated/faster/cheaper to build and probably even more effort put into factory design as the vehicle design.
We do have over a century of auto design and the factories have changed much less than the vehicles, Elon wants to fix that - that is what he has said. Elon thinks factory design should be about 10x what the vehicle design efforts are. i.e. Every $ spent on factory design pays back 10x compared to a $ spent on vehicle design.
And we won't even start on $ spent to "create demand - advertising" vs spending on the quality of the product. This is where Elon is really disruptive. The Media really hates him for that. What happens if all manufacturers realize what he is showing them? Can they learn? Bob Lutz and Fisker don't seem to have learned yet. We shall see.
True, but i don't really see the connection between this and a Model 3 crossover since it would be basically the same car as the Model 3 if done as suggested here. Just like "all" of the competitors do, Volvo, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen... They have a sedan, station wagon and a "crossover" version of the station wagon that are all basically the same car.
Doesn't mean that Tesla necessarily should follow in their footsteps, but on the other hand, why not ? If not now then sometime in the future.
And as i have said here before, my personal preference is more of a SUV style crossover with added headroom/space..So i've got nothing against the way Tesla is going with the Model Y. Especially if they make it a 6/7 seater.
Brando
Active Member
Why not use Model 3 platform?
The reason is to lower manufacturing costs. (Which means lower prices for users.)
Elon has said efforts in manufacturing pays up to 10x better than vehicle design efforts.
This is the the idea behind Alien Dreadnought and the "machine that builds the machine".
Consider a doubling of output (by increasing production speed only) cuts labor costs in half.
You get the idea, right? cash flow, market share, maximum federal tax credits etc.
My previous car was a BMW 5xx wagon, the carrying capacity of my Model S is a bit larger. I'm able to put two bikes and enough luggage with the seats folded down for a 5 day trip.
Might Jaguar buy into the Tesla network? I can't imagine that Tata is concerned about partnering with Tesla.
Perhaps this thread should be revived now that the Model Y will be based on the Model 3 after all:
Model Y to be based on Model 3 after all
If time-to-market, low-costs and production ramp is important then making something along the line of what's suggested here would perhaps not be a bad idea.
Note that they'll also do the 100m wiring harness part on the Model 3 platform.
Model Y to be based on Model 3 after all
If time-to-market, low-costs and production ramp is important then making something along the line of what's suggested here would perhaps not be a bad idea.
Note that they'll also do the 100m wiring harness part on the Model 3 platform.
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I get the idea. But perhaps they've come to the conclusion that bringing the 100m wiring harness and other improvements to the Model 3 factory will make it very close to the envisioned "alien dreadnought". Or perhaps that the alien dreadnought would take have taken lot longer to bring to market then their initial estimations.
Tesla has also mentioned that they will announce 2-4 new factory locations at the end of this year. The Chinese factory is probably very high on the "need to do list". Making a copy of the Model 3 production line should be a lot easier then creating something completely new in 2-3 different locations simultaneously.
I was wondering - did anybody also notice a teaser image appearing briefly at the end of the model 3 live webcast last week? (half a second close to the 'thanks for watching'). I remember it as a 3/4 front view, very dark, with lines of a hatchback. I am following the discussions but could not find mention of it, which surprises me as I was not the only one watching... Unfortunately I did not have time to capture the screen. This would be further proof that Model Y is not that far away...
Wops indeed that was the one! I guess it only showed up on my screen very briefly because of my poor internet connection, not because it was ultra-secret
Now that I can take a better look I also see Model 3 sorry!From the When will the Model Y be unveiled? thread:
May or may not be called Model Y, "We're going to aim for maximum carryover" (from Model 3).
Don't think that they can get more carryover then if they do a "station wagon" crossover. And that would explain why they might not call it Model Y.
May or may not be called Model Y, "We're going to aim for maximum carryover" (from Model 3).
Don't think that they can get more carryover then if they do a "station wagon" crossover. And that would explain why they might not call it Model Y.
I have an Outback, which is built on the same platform as the Liberty/Legacy. It's the perfect format for families. Now if Tesla could do the same with the 3 platform, it would sell like hot cakes.
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