technically its more difficult to build a ccs adapter than a chademo adapter,
tesla, chademo, china gbt all use CAN bus for signalling. which differs from CCS which uses power line communications.
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Using CCS chargers
- Thread starter aegidius
- Start date
technically its more difficult to build a ccs adapter than a chademo adapter,
tesla, chademo, china gbt all use CAN bus for signalling. which differs from CCS which uses power line communications.
The PLC on CCS is over the pilot connector rather than one of the big DC lines, so I'm not sure I see why that'd be significantly more effort - you already need a set of electronics changing one set of messages to a completely different set, so having it put them on a different format on a different wire should be only a nominal increase in complexity. The Tesla CHAdeMO adapter has it's own updatable firmware to handle the translations it does.
But unless you're arguing that Tesla is unable to solve the technical problem or it would make the adapter hopelessly expensive, the complexity isn't really the point of the discussion.
with china being 50% of the world ev market, whatever they decide is pretty much the standard. china + japan together absolutely is the global standard.
i would expect this announcement will lead to a gbt/chademo arrangement similar to ccs1/cc2. in that just as ccs1 and cc2 are same hardware but differing sockets, so i expect gbt/chademo to be same hardware but differing sockets.
in their conservatism, the Chademo designers gave their DC system an additional analog handshake, I can see the Chinese thinking this is a robust idea for high power DC, after all, it reflects the same reliability conservatism that favours twin dedicated circular sockets over ccs style asymmetric merged sockets. On the other hand, if China can do it safely without the handshake, the Japanese are probably also happy to copy that, so either way, these 2 similar china/japan standards will merge over time. the intent will be to make the onboard car electronics scale between the 2 countries, offboard (charger) electronics is almost irrelevant, as there >100:1 ratio between EVs and DC chargers, its the cost of the car side signalling electronics that dominate.
i think the complexity is a big part of the problem, or more precisely, validation of a hypothetical tesla ccs adapter would be more problematic than a tesla chademo adapter. and that is the real issue. if a tesla ccs adapter was generally less reliable than a chademo adapter, then why bother?
If it's going to be that hard for Tesla to make a reliable adapter, won't it be difficult for a dozen different companies to make EVs that charge from dozens of brands of chargers?
I don't think it'll be nearly as hard as you apparently do, but if it is, all the car makers are going to have compatibility issues, too.
(If you think about it, the car's modules speak CANBus, but the interface with CCS is your PLC. The onboard module for every CCS car has to do pretty much exactly what the Tesla adapter has to do.)
IN New Zealand the situation is reversed; there are very few Tesla Superchargers, (6 sites open for the whole country, 4 more "coming soon") and lots of combo CCS/CHAdeMO 50kW DC fast chargers - some of which are free. So far about 90% of EV's in NZ are used Nissan Leaf's imported from Japan, so CHAdeMO is going to be be sticking around here for a long time. I believe the Govt has mandated that CCS is our future DC charging standard, but that seems pretty weird decision when most EVs and PHEV's in NZ use CHAdeMO.
raynewman
Active Member
I live in an apartment NOT in Sydney or Melbourne but Brisbane and charge at home every night.
If your Body Corp is being unreasonable get on the body corp.
If you are renting - I can't help.
Candleflame
Active Member
superchargers are not really meant to be used for home charging, they are for long distance travel which like i said before is currently not really supported at all in australia outside the melbourne - brisbane route.
The new urban superchargers are intended for those living in apartments or other places where they can't charge at home.
Yeah exactly. Some clown decided the Germans must always be right and nominated Type 2 AC and CCS as the “official” NZ standard.
This is course ignores the fact that most new EVs are Tesla’s and almost all used EVs are Leafs. Should have been Type 1 and Chademo...
I don’t mind the Type 2 Mennekes but the CCS spits back way more charging errors on the Ioniq than I have ever had on my Leaf. CCS seems clunky despite what some have said here about it being more advanced.
Candleflame
Active Member
From what I understand the J1772 standard for AC charging does not support 3 phase which is important to grid operators when trying to balance large continuous loads like an EV charging session. Type 2 in contrast supports 3 phase charging which is why it was favoured in NZ and subsequently Australia. J1772 was initially popular as the first production EVs to arrive in Australia were Japanese where J1772 and CHADEMO are the standard.
That means CCS2 for the related Quick Charge standard as the round section of the plug is based on Type 2 plug pattern.
If you are having issues with CCS2 charging I’m not sure CCS1 would be any more reliable as they are two sides of the same standard.
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Someone claiming to work in the industry posted in another similar thread about CCS adapters, and I found it interesting/credible, so I'll copy/paste it here.
Tesla CCS fast charging adapter?
Tesla CCS fast charging adapter?
"We are a DC charge controllers and power converters manufacturer, and we have done our own implementation of many standards, including CCS.
Can a CCS adapter for Tesla be technically made? Yes.
Is there anything legal preventing that? No.
Is anything in the protocol causing it to not be feasible? No.
Is the power flow different between Tesla 1 wire CAN and CCS? No.
Is CCS dead protocol? No. All US and European manufacturers make solely CCS cars now, not just VW (check Chevy Bolt)
As a matter of fact, it was harder for Tesla to make a Chademo adapter, because Chademo standard doesn't support precharge - so Tesla had to implement their own HV generator making 400V out of 12V, just to prevent contactor damage. Chademo standard relies on a diode in the station, while CCS and Tesla has active precharge prior to closing the DC contactors (so the charge state machine is more compatible with CCS).
CCS is much more complicated than Chademo. But once it is done, it is done, just costs a bit more on the CPU resources/performance.
The only drawback of a Tesla CCS adapter is that it would need to have it's own batteries inside to provide power for initial communication. Chademo charging station provides this power, so the communication can start, but CCS does not (chicken and egg - no power without power). This is not a problem in a vehicle of course, as vehicle has 12V battery always on. Small battery in the adapter would solve that.
Why won't Tesla make a CCS adapter? Like others mentioned, Tesla will simply put it one day on new cars. Want to have one? Trade your Tesla for a newer model.
Will others make a Tesla CCS adapter? Probably no.
We are planning to make one for marketing purposes, just to show it can be done, but I doubt we will ever try to sell any. It would be too cost prohibitive. Tesla Chademo adapter is so cheap because they made their own molds for it and spit out large amounts of them."
Can a CCS adapter for Tesla be technically made? Yes.
Is there anything legal preventing that? No.
Is anything in the protocol causing it to not be feasible? No.
Is the power flow different between Tesla 1 wire CAN and CCS? No.
Is CCS dead protocol? No. All US and European manufacturers make solely CCS cars now, not just VW (check Chevy Bolt)
As a matter of fact, it was harder for Tesla to make a Chademo adapter, because Chademo standard doesn't support precharge - so Tesla had to implement their own HV generator making 400V out of 12V, just to prevent contactor damage. Chademo standard relies on a diode in the station, while CCS and Tesla has active precharge prior to closing the DC contactors (so the charge state machine is more compatible with CCS).
CCS is much more complicated than Chademo. But once it is done, it is done, just costs a bit more on the CPU resources/performance.
The only drawback of a Tesla CCS adapter is that it would need to have it's own batteries inside to provide power for initial communication. Chademo charging station provides this power, so the communication can start, but CCS does not (chicken and egg - no power without power). This is not a problem in a vehicle of course, as vehicle has 12V battery always on. Small battery in the adapter would solve that.
Why won't Tesla make a CCS adapter? Like others mentioned, Tesla will simply put it one day on new cars. Want to have one? Trade your Tesla for a newer model.
Will others make a Tesla CCS adapter? Probably no.
We are planning to make one for marketing purposes, just to show it can be done, but I doubt we will ever try to sell any. It would be too cost prohibitive. Tesla Chademo adapter is so cheap because they made their own molds for it and spit out large amounts of them."
Most of that seems reasonable. The assumption that Tesla will someday start installing CCS ports on their cars seems pretty improbable, though - unless they are mandated by law in the EU or something. In terms of numbers sold and networks available, they are dominating all the CCS competition; why would they walk away from that to join a lesser system?
Murbs
Member
A point to note is that Tesla themselves are advocating that all public DC charging stations be mandated to be CCS2 as per their submission to the Senate select committee inquiry into electric vehicles.
https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=a2947a0e-1fb4-46bd-bc26-fb00b1c6055f&subId=658548
https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=a2947a0e-1fb4-46bd-bc26-fb00b1c6055f&subId=658548
Candleflame
Active Member
It would be a dickmove from Tesla. If they will plaster the entirety of the world with superchargers I couldn't care less about the DC socket. But as long as they only really cover America and central Europe they are imho obliged to use the most common DC charging protocol.
Murbs
Member
I respectfully note that you’re from Delaware Saghost and you may not be aware that there are places that exist external to the United States of America that actually do things differently to your fine country. If you had read my prior post, you would have seen that Tesla has advocated for CCS2 chargers IN AUSTRALIA.
I'm aware that other parts of the world use other charging systems. In a lot of three phase countries like Europe and Australia, Tesla is using a modified Type 2 connector for both AC and Supercharging.
I'm still awaiting any sort of evidence that Tesla is even considering changing their charge ports. If it's all but certain they will do that, surely there should be some concrete evidence or statements from Tesla, yes?
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