Tesla CCS fast charging adapter?

[jbcarioca]

CCS is a very flexible standard taht allows for a virtually limitless set of options for payment, using an ac communications protocol from Homelink. CharIN is the parent:
News
Nearly every manufacturer, including Tesla is a member. It is by far the fastest growing standard, but in NA we'll not see it reach anything close to expected mass until about 2020. It currently does not permit adapters, but probably that will change sometime around 2020, probably with limits on voltage and amperage.

For context, just look at all the members, which include many electric utilities, equipment manufacturers and charging networks, as well as vehicle manufacturers.

CCS is all about the future not the present day. For now it's irrelevant to Tesla users. Soon it will be ubiquitous, 'soon' meaning in two years time.
FWIW, Tesla could very easily install native CCS, since the communications capability already exists in Tesla vehicles. Adapters will be harder. Personally I am convinced that by 2020 most new Teslas will be CCS capable but I have no hard evidence to support my view.If not why is Tesla a full member of CharIN?

I allowed a couple of typos to creep into this post. One was important. The CCS AC communications standard is built around HomePlug Green PHY. HomeLink has nothing to do with it.
https://www.qualcomm.com/sites/embe..._charging_qualcommautotechconf_april_2015.pdf

 

[kiwi]

Hey All.
Just to add a Oceania perspective...
In Europe and Asia/Oceania, Tesla use a Mennekes (CCS2) plug for supercharging.
Fortunately its not one of those monster Frankenplugs with extra DC pins below - Tesla somehow
managed to push 120KW DC down a set of pins meant to support 70KW DC or
94KW AC (File:Typ2.jpg - Wikipedia). Apparently they did have to reinforce
the pins somewhat to make it work. Its not quite as svelte as the US Tesla plug, but its pretty
good: Google Image Result for http://www.nextgreencar.com/i/electric-cars/type2-ac-connector.jpg.

This means I can drive up to Tesla superchargers here for up to 120KW, CHADEMO with the
adapter and get 50KW or Mennekes/CCS2 and get 43KW AC. I can't use the CCS2+DC
(frankenplug).

It looks like future ultra-fast chargers @350KW from IONITY will use CCS2+DC (frankenplug)
and a massive cable that will be very hard to manoeuvre
(https://www.zap-map.com/european-350kw-ionity-network-launched/ ). I hope Tesla's membership
to CharIN means that they will be able to convince the group to move towards better
engineered solutions - meaning thinner liquid cooled cables and a smaller plug. Who knows, but
having a common standard will be useful as the pressure on charging stations increases.

 

[EfficientWatts]

Hey All.
Just to add a Oceania perspective...
In Europe and Asia/Oceania, Tesla use a Mennekes (CCS2) plug for supercharging.
Fortunately its not one of those monster Frankenplugs with extra DC pins below - Tesla somehow
managed to push 120KW DC down a set of pins meant to support 70KW DC or
94KW AC (File:Typ2.jpg - Wikipedia). Apparently they did have to reinforce
the pins somewhat to make it work. Its not quite as svelte as the US Tesla plug, but its pretty
good: Google Image Result for http://www.nextgreencar.com/i/electric-cars/type2-ac-connector.jpg.

It looks like future ultra-fast chargers @350KW from IONITY will use CCS2+DC (frankenplug)
and a massive cable that will be very hard to manoeuvre
(https://www.zap-map.com/european-350kw-ionity-network-launched/ ). I hope Tesla's membership
to CharIN means that they will be able to convince the group to move towards better
engineered solutions - meaning thinner liquid cooled cables and a smaller plug. Who knows, but
having a common standard will be useful as the pressure on charging stations increases.

As I understand it 350 kW is supposed to use liquid cooled cables, though I could be wrong there. More of the increased power comes from the 800V DC instead of 400V.

Something I wonder is if the Type 2 Tesla connector (and the US one for that matter) could handle double voltage. If so then a car with a 800V pack could double from 120 to 240 kW max charging without any increase in current. I don't know if that can be done with the current connectors though (arcing may become an issue if the pins are too close?)

 

[n2mb_racing]

I thought the 350 kw rating is 1000v, 350a. So, compatible current to the existing superchargers . I think I've seen 350A.

So, there's an upgrade path for the existing connectors to reach the same power levels.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I thought the 350 kw rating is 1000v, 350a. So, compatible current to the existing superchargers . I think I've seen 350A.

So, there's an upgrade path for the existing connectors to reach the same power levels.

Well, not quite. 1000v needs more conductor separation due to arcing. I doubt the existing Tesla connector could do 1000v.

More to the point, though, is that Tesla has shown no indication or interest in moving away from their 400v battery technology.

1000v does not come for free. There are significant engineering challenges with such a high voltage. If Porsche has figured it out, more power to them, but it isn’t in Tesla’s mid term future.

 

[tls]

1000v does not come for free. There are significant engineering challenges with such a high voltage. If Porsche has figured it out, more power to them, but it isn’t in Tesla’s mid term future.

Never mind batteries still aren't large enough to sustain charge rates >120kW for any useful length of time without being damaged. What this means is that the manufacturers pushing these 800-1000V systems and claiming 200kW+ charge rates are selling something that cannot be delivered without seriously impacting the range and performance of the cars involved. Most of which have smaller-than-Tesla batteries that can't actually sustain even 100kW charge rates.

Until we see batteries in the 200kW range or new technologies like supercaps or flywheels to temporarily store energy that is expected to be used in the same leg of a long trip, chargers faster than the present Superchargers are pointless.

 

[EfficientWatts]

Never mind batteries still aren't large enough to sustain charge rates >120kW for any useful length of time without being damaged. What this means is that the manufacturers pushing these 800-1000V systems and claiming 200kW+ charge rates are selling something that cannot be delivered without seriously impacting the range and performance of the cars involved. Most of which have smaller-than-Tesla batteries that can't actually sustain even 100kW charge rates.

Until we see batteries in the 200kW range or new technologies like supercaps or flywheels to temporarily store energy that is expected to be used in the same leg of a long trip, chargers faster than the present Superchargers are pointless.

This is kind of straying from Model S territory, but let's pretend maybe Model S gets a 200 kW battery like the future Roadster haha...

Anyways with the 75-80kW battery in the Model 3, we are seeing peak charge rates of 120kW. Assuming some of this tech carries over to the Roadster battery, if things were proportional you could get 320 kW. However that is not realistic as that would require 2.66x times the current if stuff remained at 400V. Now if you double the battery pack to 800V you could get a way with a peak charge rate of 240 kW, which is actually a little closer to what Elon has mentioned as the max rate for supercharging (Tesla shares Supercharger V3 details, critiques Porsche's 350 kW chargers). Question becomes what would it take to support 800V as the connector pins may need to be further apart...

 

[eldis]

A lot of slightly misleading info in the first answers.
We are a DC charge controllers and power converters manufacturer, and we have done our own implementation of many standards, including CCS.

Can a CCS adapter for Tesla be technically made? Yes.
Is there anything legal preventing that? No.
Is anything in the protocol causing it to not be feasible? No.
Is the power flow different between Tesla 1 wire CAN and CCS? No.
Is CCS dead protocol? No. All US and European manufacturers make solely CCS cars now, not just VW (check Chevy Bolt)

As a matter of fact, it was harder for Tesla to make a Chademo adapter, because Chademo standard doesn't support precharge - so Tesla had to implement their own HV generator making 400V out of 12V, just to prevent contactor damage. Chademo standard relies on a diode in the station, while CCS and Tesla has active precharge prior to closing the DC contactors (so the charge state machine is more compatible with CCS).

CCS is much more complicated than Chademo. But once it is done, it is done, just costs a bit more on the CPU resources/performance.
The only drawback of a Tesla CCS adapter is that it would need to have it's own batteries inside to provide power for initial communication. Chademo charging station provides this power, so the communication can start, but CCS does not (chicken and egg - no power without power). This is not a problem in a vehicle of course, as vehicle has 12V battery always on. Small battery in the adapter would solve that.

Why won't Tesla make a CCS adapter? Like others mentioned, Tesla will simply put it one day on new cars. Want to have one? Trade your Tesla for a newer model.

Will others make a Tesla CCS adapter? Probably no.
We are planning to make one for marketing purposes, just to show it can be done, but I doubt we will ever try to sell any. It would be too cost prohibitive. Tesla Chademo adapter is so cheap because they made their own molds for it and spit out large amounts of them.

 

[scaesare]

It's pretty obvious that CCS is going to be the dominant standard in the US. The German vehicles that are coming will be using CCS. Jaguar's iPace, which looks to be a viable alternative to Model X, is also CCS-based. I believe CCS scales in power up to 350 kW and will support 800v batteries that will be used in future generations of vehicles.

I'd hesitate to use both "obvious" and "dominant" in that statement.

Given the fact that most of the US CCS infrastructure exists on paper (Plugshare reports only 250 stations in the us currently), and the relative glacial pace of rollout, it's not at all obvious that the plans will necessarily translate in to a "dominant" number of convenient and usable locations. Lots of plans look great on paper....

What's more CCS is a committee backed standard. Sometimes standards committees are great. Other times they stifle progress.

Finally, the CCS rollout is a by a fractured set participants. It's payment and usage system is not consistent. Maintenance and reliability are a question mark. The connector is not terribly friendly. Any of these could be a showstopper.

Certainly there are is some potential to address some of these things: The Electrify America rollout may execute well and bring volume and consistency to the infrastructure. The current "common" authorization and payment system proposals could help with ease of use. Or not.

So CCS has a reasonable chance at success, but "obvious dominance"? I tend to think not.

After all, MicroChannel was once the obvious next dominant bus architecture for PC's. And The Newton was gonna be a smash for Apple. And OS/2 the next dominant OS for IBM/Microsoft. And....

 

[Snowstorm]

We are planning to make one for marketing purposes, just to show it can be done, but I doubt we will ever try to sell any. It would be too cost prohibitive.

Why would be cost prohibitive? If CCS does become a standard, then lots of people would want it and it can be built at scale. Tesla made the Chademo adapter when there were only a few S and x on the road, so it cannot be at that high of a scale and still manage a somewhat reasonable a bit high price. We will soon have many more times the Tesla vehicles on the toad due to the 3, and all those S and X that was previously sold, so there had to be good volume right? What am I missing here?

 

[tga]

Why would be cost prohibitive? If CCS does become a standard, then lots of people would want it and it can be built at scale. Tesla made the Chademo adapter when there were only a few S and x on the road, so it cannot be at that high of a scale and still manage a somewhat reasonable a bit high price. We will soon have many more times the Tesla vehicles on the toad due to the 3, and all those S and X that was previously sold, so there had to be good volume right? What am I missing here?

Every new CCS station I've come across is a CCS/Chademo combo, so the existing Chademo would work. It'll be a long time before Chademo is phased out and new stations are CCS-only, causing you to need a CCS adapter. By then, hopefully superchargers will be ubiquitous.

 

[Snowstorm]

The existing Chademo is only good up to 50kw, I was hoping that a new CCS adapter would be good up to the limit of the car, 100-120kw. Also, knowing that Chademo is dead, I would much rather buy a CCS adapter than a Chademo now and then a CCS one in a few years.

 

[Jeff N]

It looks like future ultra-fast chargers @350KW from IONITY will use CCS2+DC (frankenplug)
and a massive cable that will be very hard to manoeuvre

Cable cooling is a function of amperage. CCS (and probably CHAdeMO) cables and plugs over about 250A (100 kW at 400V) require liquid cooling. So, these higher power chargers will use liquid cooled cables so they will be about as maneuverable as existing CCS cables and less stiff than the existing Tesla Supercharger cables that have to carry up to around 370A without liquid-cooling.

This means I can drive up to Tesla superchargers here for up to 120KW, CHADEMO with the
adapter and get 50KW or Mennekes/CCS2 and get 43KW AC.

I’ve seen no evidence that any Tesla car can charge at 43 kW AC using 3-phase with a European Type 2 plug.

Something I wonder is if the Type 2 Tesla connector (and the US one for that matter) could handle double voltage. If so then a car with a 800V pack could double from 120 to 240 kW max charging without any increase in current. I don't know if that can be done with the current connectors though (arcing may become an issue if the pins are too close?)

I don’t know although Tesla seems to be implying that they will announce support for over 200 kW Supercharging sometime later this year and that almost certainly requires at least 700-800V.

I thought the 350 kw rating is 1000v, 350a. So, compatible current to the existing superchargers . I think I've seen 350A

The J1772 Type 1 connector is rated at 400A DC at 1,000V as of October of last year. Charging equipment vendors ABB and ChargePoint claim to support configurations with up to 500A at 1,000V per plug.

J1772 updated to 400A DC at 1000V

Well, not quite. 1000v needs more conductor separation due to arcing. I doubt the existing Tesla connector could do 1000v.

More to the point, though, is that Tesla has shown no indication or interest in moving away from their 400v battery technology.

I think Elon has stated or strongly implied an upgrade announcement to the Superchargers to power levels that imply at least 700-800V later this year.

1000v does not come for free. There are significant engineering challenges with such a high voltage. If Porsche has figured it out, more power to them, but it isn’t in Tesla’s mid term future.

It’s pretty obvious that Tesla’s Megacharger design for the Tesla Semi supports charging at 800V or more on each of the four DC charging pin pairs. It seems likely to me that they will share this basic charger design with the single pair DC pins on the Superchargers.

How does 800V charging work?

Never mind batteries still aren't large enough to sustain charge rates >120kW for any useful length of time without being damaged.

Not true. There are power-oriented cells designed for use in PHEVs and smaller capacity EVs that could be scaled up in packs that support over 200 kW charging but it would require a trade off that reduces pack energy capacity and driving range.

What this means is that the manufacturers pushing these 800-1000V systems and claiming 200kW+ charge rates are selling something that cannot be delivered without seriously impacting the range and performance of the cars involved.

Right. It would impact driving range (but not necessarily performance) but allow faster charging.

Plugshare reports only 250 stations in the us currently

That can’t be right. EVgo alone has just over 1,000 DC chargers with typically one or two chargers per location.

Every new CCS station I've come across is a CCS/Chademo combo, so the existing Chademo would work. It'll be a long time before Chademo is phased out and new stations are CCS-only, causing you to need a CCS adapter.

It will be awhile before CHAdeMO is phased out but, as a practical matter, Nissan is the only serious mass producer of CHAdeMO cars outside of the Japanese market.

Electrify America is now installing locations that contain one charging pedestal supporting CHAdeMO at 50 kW (software upgraded to 100 kW later) and multiple CCS-only pedestals at 150 kW or 350 kW.

The existing Chademo is only good up to 50kw, I was hoping that a new CCS adapter would be good up to the limit of the car, 100-120kw. Also, knowing that Chademo is dead, I would much rather buy a CCS adapter than a Chademo now and then a CCS one in a few years.

CHAdeMO has been approved for up to 400A at 500V and soon at up to 1,000V but no parts suppliers have certified liquid-cooled CHAdeMO cables and plugs yet. So, you will only find the latest equipment available supporting 200A CHAdeMO using conventional cables and plugs at 100 kW.

 

[scaesare]

Plugshare reports only 250 stations in the us currently

That can’t be right. EVgo alone has just over 1,000 DC chargers with typically one or two chargers per location.

Well, it's a tad difficult to portray here, as you can only specify North America as the region, but here's what plugshare says with CCS only selected... it's listing 312 locations, but that's because you can't select just the US (all of North America only), and the top right corner includes some of Canada in this static image:

If I move the image around some to try and estimate whats within US borders, by rough estimation there's perhaps just over 250 locations total.

But based on your comment, I went and looked at AFDC, and they list 1,292 stations representing 1,595 outlets:

AFDC Site

So I'm not sure what's up with Plugshare… I thought maybe it was a "site vs. stall" thing, but that would mean those 250 sites would need an average of ~6 plugs/stalls.... and a random sampling on Plugshare lists 1-2 for most sites... so color me confused.

 

[cwerdna]

All US and European manufacturers make solely CCS cars now, not just VW (check Chevy Bolt)

Not true. For example, for the Japanese market BMW i3 has a CHAdeMO inlet.

You can see the references to it at ニューBMW i3 充電・航続距離 | BMW i スペシャルサイト and BMW JAPAN : 日本初: 電気自動車 BMW i3 のカーシェアリング・サービスを開始, for example. You can use Google Translate to translate. On the Japanese market i3, the CHAdeMO inlet is on the rear fender and the J1772 inlet got moved to inside the frunk.

BMW i3 Gets CHAdeMO Charged In Japan

I was at Toyko Motor Show 2017 and saw a Japanese market VW e-Golf. J1772 inlet was in the nose under the VW logo and CHAdeMO inlet was on the rear fender, just like at e-Golf | ハッチバック | フォルクスワーゲン公式. Look under Charging.

BMW and VW have ended up having to support Combo1 (for North America), Combo2 (for Europe) and CHAdeMO for Japan.

From EVs – Chademo Association, Peugeot Partner Electric: the 100% electric van points to http://media.peugeot.co.uk/file/80/6/partner-electric-overview.350806.pdf which mentions CHAdeMO.

Tesla is a US manufacturer. It doesn't "make solely CCS cars". I don't know of any Teslas being sold with CCS compatibility at all, at least not yet. Teslas are compatible w/one of their two different Supercharger plugs, CHAdeMO w/an adapter (e.g. Model S/X CHAdeMO Adapter), and Chinese ones have compatibility with GB/T: Tesla updates Model S/X charge port to support China's charging standard. The Chinese version was discussed at New Dual Charging Port!.

 

[miimura]

So I'm not sure what's up with Plugshare… I thought maybe it was a "site vs. stall" thing, but that would mean those 250 sites would need an average of ~6 plugs/stalls.... and a random sampling on Plugshare lists 1-2 for most sites... so color me confused.

I think Plugshare does not show and count up all the sites at a National zoom level. You would probably get a better count if you zoomed into metro areas and did your own math.

 

[cwerdna]

All US and European manufacturers make solely CCS cars now, not just VW (check Chevy Bolt)

Besides the data points I already provided of US and European automakers supporting other DC FC standards beyond CCS (e.g. BMW, VW, Tesla and Peugot), I found Citroën Electric Berlingo | Electric Vans pointing to https://info.citroen.co.uk/Assets/pdf/new-vans/berlingo-panel-van/brochure.pdf which says "A second socket gives you 80% charge in just 35 minutes when attached to a Chademo rapid charge port..."

 

[cwerdna]

Every new CCS station I've come across is a CCS/Chademo combo, so the existing Chademo would work. It'll be a long time before Chademo is phased out and new stations are CCS-only, causing you to need a CCS adapter. By then, hopefully superchargers will be ubiquitous.

There are some CCS-only stations like these:
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You

And, they're unfortunately lame ~24 kW (ChargePoint Express 100 - ChargePoint or BMW Launches New Low Cost DC Fast Chargers From $6,458) ones at that.

Also, some Chevy dealers have only CCS for DC charging and probably L2 J1772. I've seen some reports of units like these:
Delta Dual Wallbox Level 3 EV DC Quick Charging Station
Power DC Plus 25kW | Bosch EV

 

[tga]

There are some CCS-only stations like these:

I wasn't saying that CCS-only stations don't exist, but I've never come across one, or been stuck because I couldn't charge at a CCS.

Most of those you mentioned are at car dealers, which don't really count. Of course a dealership is not installing a CCS/Chademo combo station. They don't want customers of competing brands charging there and advertising other options to potential customers. Heck, let's face it, they don't want the public charging there, period. Those stations are only there because the manufacturer requires it, to charge customer cars prior to delivery and when in for service, and for marketing EV's ("see, chargers are everywhere! We even have one right here!"). They don't want you showing up, getting in the way, and driving up their electric bill.

I only count 7 CCS-only, non-dealership stations in all of New England. Most are less than a mile from a Chademo or Supercharger; all are within 5-10 miles of one:
Three Whole Foods:
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
Two Marriotts:
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
Mystic Aquarium - PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
Stop & Shop - PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You

Chademo's are going to be around and being installed for years. Probably at a lower rate than CCS-only, once Electrify America ramps up, but still growing. Not until Nissan admits defeat, puts a CCS on Leaf 3.0, and all the prior Chademo cars have aged out will Chademo stations fade away in North America. That's at least a decade out. Who knows what the charging landscape will look like then, but I'm willing to bet there will be enough Superchargers that none us will need or care about a CCS adapter then.

 

[Araman0]

Apologies for reviving an old(ish) thread.

With the announcement recently that European Model S/X owners will be able to pick up a CCS adapter soon, it's worth asking the question again. Can US owners expect a CCS adapter sooner or later for their S/X's?

With Electrify America and all other fast chargers building out a network of urban and rural fast chargers, it's just a matter of time before these chargers catch up and surpass the Supercharger network in numbers. CCS seems like it will be the winning standard sooner or later as well. It would be great to be able to tap into the CCS chargers in a pinch or for added flexibility of stops/routes.