V11 - what’s your verdict?

[GeorgeSymonds]

Have to agree. I'm led to believe by Data Scientists I know that one of the first questions a Data Scientist should ask when taking on a new project is whether AI actually is the best solution to the client's problem, or whether other, simpler solutions would be more efficient and cost-effective. AI clearly is the answer to self-driving as there's no other existing technology that can do that. Is it the answer to rain sensing? I would imagine that a camera-based system is always going to struggle a bit detecting rain intensity in low light - indeed, humans don't find it that easy to do, which is why we often rely on other 'sensors' (sticking our hand out the door to see if it gets wet) sometimes in these conditions.

Saying that for some things that vision-based systems aren't suited to, where better technologies already exist, Tesla should use the existing better technologies if they are relatively cheap to procure doesn't mean you're a vision-based system h8er overall. The fact that Tesla is a market leader in these technologies is one of the selling points of the car, and I'm very interested to see how it develops for driving autonomy purposes. But why use it for rain sensing if even the best case scenario, with many years, and much more training data, is that it becomes as good as - but no better than - existing, simpler systems for rain sensing?

The rain sensing argument is a complex one and long term I can see the advantage. For the car to self drive it needs to know the environment because a driver knows if it’s raining, misty, icy, standing water, potholes, pothole filled with water etc and makes allowances. A self driving cars need to do the same. In that context wiping the windscreen should be possible. As a unique, one off feature though it makes no sense. Where the problem comes for me is they’ve tried to run before they can walk, 4 years or so early.

The irony is the rain sensor could have helped train the AI, relying on drivers was a mistake in hindsight because drivers were already used to an semi automated feature, as a result the capability regressed for the user.

 

[AutomaticMan]

The rain sensing argument is a complex one and long term I can see the advantage. For the car to self drive it needs to know the environment because a driver knows if it’s raining, misty, icy, standing water, potholes, pothole filled with water etc and makes allowances. A self driving cars need to do the same. In that context wiping the windscreen should be possible. As a unique, one off feature though it makes no sense. Where the problem comes for me is they’ve tried to run before they can walk, 4 years or so early.

The irony is the rain sensor could have helped train the AI, relying on drivers was a mistake in hindsight because drivers were already used to an semi automated feature, as a result the capability regressed for the user.

I absolutely agree. I wonder how Tesla does capture 'down votes' for the automatic wiper decisions, or whether they do at all? I would imagine (though this is purely speculation) that when the user grabs the steering wheel to correct the self-driving that this gives an indication in the data of where current weightings are wrong and helps improve training. But how do they capture this for the wipers? Maybe when the user takes them off the automatic setting to a manual setting they log that as feedback input?

But as you say, simply having a traditional rain sensor to act as ground truth for the camera system to baseline its decisions against would surely speed up the training process.

Or if it does have to be camera-based for some intellectual purity reason that I'm still not grasping, maybe they need another camera inside the cabin looking through the windscreen from a distance. It is easier for the human eye to spot rain on a pane of glass from a bit of a distance from the glass than it is if your eye is pressed right up to the glass, maybe the same is true for cameras?

 

[Type2]

I think I can afford the inevitable downvote from spdpsba so here I go....

A downvote from spdpsba is a badge of honour. Personally I never downvote anyone because I respect their right to express an opinion, even if I thoroughly disagree with that opinion. Some people are clearly intolerant of any opinion that doesn’t fit in with their own, and are also completely lacking in social niceties.

This poll still shows that more people “hate” V11 than “love” it. The biggest voting group recognise that there are major issues. The vote clearly shows that the majority of people do not think that V11 is a success, and not just the “vocal minority” who apparently shouldn’t be allowed a voice on this forum.

 

[Wol747]

The vocal minority neither can understand the technology nor the aspects of self driving and deep learning. I have attached a link here, so before go and post the same views again and again pretending that is true listen to this video and try and understand a bit about the tech your car has which you are oblivious to.

I don't see why you are so superior in your replies.
Back in the mid sixties I did some driving at the TRRL in Bracknell - it was a project in automatic driving, human reaction times and so on. The scientists then were telling me that autonomous cars were just a decade or so in the future. I disagreed.
Tesla “FSD” (my quotes) is a remarkable achievement in its present incarnation - but it’s nowhere near sellable to the average car buyer as more than level 2/3. The constant refrain that it’s “x times safer” than human driving seems to ignore the fact that it is overridden time after time to prevent an incident, and in city traffic with those pesky human drivers often has to be taken out/prompted to keep traffic moving.
It will get better, of course, but ”Robotaxis soon” - who is kidding whom? Meanwhile Musk is still selling the “soon”.

 

[AutomaticMan]

A downvote from spdpsba is a badge of honour. Personally I never downvote anyone because I respect their right to express an opinion, even if I thoroughly disagree with that opinion. Some people are clearly intolerant of any opinion that doesn’t fit in with their own, and are also completely lacking in social niceties.

This poll still shows that more people “hate” V11 than “love” it. The biggest voting group recognise that there are major issues. The vote clearly shows that the majority of people do not think that V11 is a success, and not just the “vocal minority” who apparently shouldn’t be allowed a voice on this forum.

I'm not even getting the downvotes for hating V11... I've posted to say that as a future M3 owner,* based on what I've seen in videos I think V11 looks better to me than previous versions. I'm getting downvotes for saying that I hope Tesla continues to improve certain aspects like the 2D-only navigation, being able to browse Bluetooth music input sources (or adding an Apple CarPlay app), or - if reports from owners on this thread are to be believed - the automatic wipers.

You get downvoted from the fanboys here even if you post to say you like V11 apparently!

*(Which is a caveat to say, I could be wrong as I don't own it yet.)

 

[PITA]

I use Wipers in manual mode... never had a problem.

Easy to use, job done.

 

[AutomaticMan]

I use Wipers in manual mode... never had a problem.

Easy to use, job done.

So if a rain sensor is like 50 pence or something, and on the Tesla ordering form they gave you a box to tick for 'Enhanced AutoWipers' that adds a rain sensor to improve auto wiper accuracy as a +50 pence option, you would have said it isn't worth spending the extra 50p because manual wipers are fine?

 

[Jason71]

I'm not even getting the downvotes for hating V11... I've posted to say that as a future M3 owner,* based on what I've seen in videos I think V11 looks better to me than previous versions. I'm getting downvotes for saying that I hope Tesla continues to improve certain aspects like the 2D-only navigation, being able to browse Bluetooth music input sources (or adding an Apple CarPlay app), or - if reports from owners on this thread are to be believed - the automatic wipers.

You get downvoted from the fanboys here even if you post to say you like V11 apparently!

*(Which is a caveat to say, I could be wrong as I don't own it yet.)

I'm confused?
Surely the fanboy's would be for V11 since being for everything Tesla does irrespective of logical argument to the contrary is literally the definition of being a fanboy?
honestly though this is the least fan forum I have been on. This thread maybe not withstanding. Generally pretty fair and honest in my experience. I hear some place called facebook is the where to go for the shouting.

 

[DM206433]

So if a rain sensor is like 50 pence or something, and on the Tesla ordering form they gave you a box to tick for 'Enhanced AutoWipers' that adds a rain sensor to improve auto wiper accuracy as a +50 pence option, you would have said it isn't worth spending the extra 50p because manual wipers are fine?

I'd even stretch to a fiver.

 

[PITA]

So if a rain sensor is like 50 pence or something, and on the Tesla ordering form they gave you a box to tick for 'Enhanced AutoWipers' that adds a rain sensor to improve auto wiper accuracy as a +50 pence option, you would have said it isn't worth spending the extra 50p because manual wipers are fine?

It's a Glass Half Empty or Glass Half Full thing.

There are so many other significant benefits of owning my Tesla Model 3... I honestly don't care

I have a button I press, for instant wiping/washing... then a menu pops up for turning it on or off.

It's not even on my radar as a problem

 

[AutomaticMan]

It's a Glass Half Empty or Glass Half Full thing.

There are so many other significant benefits of owning my Tesla Model 3... I honestly don't care

I have a button I press, for instant wiping/washing... then a menu pops up for turning it on or off.

It's not even on my radar as a problem

Ok, I get that. You're saying the car is so fantastic that any of the minor downsides aren't worth complaining about, right?

I guess I just feel like even the best product in the world could probably be slightly better in some ways, and user feedback helps companies identify those areas. Even if a product is the best in the world, the company that makes it needs to think about ways they could improve it or they'll find that sooner or later a competitor will catch up and overtake them.

Doesn't mean that I'm not still glass half full about the car overall though. In fact, I'm maybe glass 99% full Can't wait to actually get the thing, the wait to March is going to be a struggle I can already tell!

 

[AutomaticMan]

I'm confused?
Surely the fanboy's would be for V11 since being for everything Tesla does irrespective of logical argument to the contrary is literally the definition of being a fanboy?
honestly though this is the least fan forum I have been on. This thread maybe not withstanding. Generally pretty fair and honest in my experience. I hear some place called facebook is the where to go for the shouting.

I think I expressed a view that went something like "I think V11 looks better to me, and I think the car is fantastic... but it looks like there are some areas that things could still be improved further and I hope they do that." That fanboys seem to have focused in on that second part of what I said, rather than the first part!

Oh, I'm sure it is a great forum overall. Just found it amusing that I was being downvoted for not being sufficiently gushing in my praise of the car, even though I'm actually one of the ones who is pro-V11, which is what this thread is about!

 

[DM206433]

Ok, I get that. You're saying the car is so fantastic that any of the minor downsides aren't worth complaining about, right?

I guess I just feel like even the best product in the world could probably be slightly better in some ways, and user feedback helps companies identify those areas. Even if a product is the best in the world, the company that makes it needs to think about ways they could improve it or they'll find that sooner or later a competitor will catch up and overtake them.

Doesn't mean that I'm not still glass half full about the car overall though. In fact, I'm maybe glass 99% full Can't wait to actually get the thing, the wait to March is going to be a struggle I can already tell!

Completely agree with this. It'll be worth the wait, all things said it's a great car and I don't miss my BMW.

 

[PITA]

Significant Benefits to me being

- It runs on Sunshine & Wind power
- No need to interact with 'people' during ownership or refuelling
- No Service Schedules or extortionate Dealer Costs
- Significantly reduced mechanical liability
- Long Warranty period
- Over the Air Updates & Improvements
- Remote Controls via Smartphone App & Smartwatch
- Scheduled home charging & low cost
- Cold Weather pre-heating & Summer pre-cooling
- Bloody fast and 4x4 traction
- No gears, clutch, handbrake or brake use
- Lane Assist autonomy with distance control
- Decent ride quality, Decent build quality (2021 MIC)
- Decent depreciation & retained value
- Minimal interior and futuristic experience
- Fun entertainment features and quirky character.
- Great Anti-theft and Security features, vehicle tracking
- Good range and charging network

 

[Hurricane]

I use Wipers in manual mode... never had a problem.

Easy to use, job done.

I do the same, not because I choose to but because the wipers are so unreliable I find them not fit for purpose. I don’t think it’s too much to expect that a paid for feature of the car should just work as intended, especially when the technology to make it work is cheap and reliable.

 

[AutomaticMan]

No need to interact with 'people'

Now you're talking my language!

 

[Adopado]

I’ve learned some things in life. One of those things is that if you have two groups of people with established views, set against each other, they will never agree. It becomes a point of personal pride and honour to “win” … or at the very least not to “lose”. This need removes any possibility of true objectivity. This wipers aspect certainly falls into that category! Can we just leave it there?

Despite every reasoned argument that is put forward in this thread the proportion of people thinking one way or the other about the UI hasn’t changed! Continued “discussion” is clearly pointless. In fact continued argument unhelpfully entrenches views rather than allowing an objective appraisal of UI development. The issues have already been well defined and that is sufficient for me.

 

[spdpsba]

I think I expressed a view that went something like "I think V11 looks better to me, and I think the car is fantastic... but it looks like there are some areas that things could still be improved further and I hope they do that." That fanboys seem to have focused in on that second part of what I said, rather than the first part!

Oh, I'm sure it is a great forum overall. Just found it amusing that I was being downvoted for not being sufficiently gushing in my praise of the car, even though I'm actually one of the ones who is pro-V11, which is what this thread is about!

It is not a downvote. It is disagree sign and sometime you don’t want to waste your energy typing when you know it is going to be in vain and you just agree to disagree. If you consider that as a badge of honour good for yourself!

 

[MrT3]

Or if it does have to be camera-based for some intellectual purity reason that I'm still not grasping, maybe they need another camera inside the cabin looking through the windscreen from a distance. It is easier for the human eye to spot rain on a pane of glass from a bit of a distance from the glass than it is if your eye is pressed right up to the glass, maybe the same is true for cameras?

Without taking this too far off topic the vision based approach for detecting rain is sub-optimal because the primary aim of those cameras is to look through the windscreen, at a near perpendicular angle, and focus ahead.

A traditional rain sensor is obviously optimally designed for the task in hand and uses close proximity infrared light aimed at 45deg to the glass and relies on a change in angle of the reflected/refracted light coming back to a sensor when rain is present. This is a more accurate way to detect the presence of rain.

What we don't know is whether Tesla has put a lot of effort into getting the system as good as they can with what they have available, at which point they should probably give up and move to a traditional approach, or that they just haven't really bothered because they have prioritised other features.

 

[Mrklaw]

Have to agree. I'm led to believe by Data Scientists I know that one of the first questions a Data Scientist should ask when taking on a new project is whether AI actually is the best solution to the client's problem, or whether other, simpler solutions would be more efficient and cost-effective. AI clearly is the answer to self-driving as there's no other existing technology that can do that. Is it the answer to rain sensing? I would imagine that a camera-based system is always going to struggle a bit detecting rain intensity in low light - indeed, humans don't find it that easy to do, which is why we often rely on other 'sensors' (sticking our hand out the door to see if it gets wet) sometimes in these conditions.

Saying that for some things that vision-based systems aren't suited to, where better technologies already exist, Tesla should use the existing better technologies if they are relatively cheap to procure doesn't mean you're a vision-based system h8er overall. The fact that Tesla is a market leader in these technologies is one of the selling points of the car, and I'm very interested to see how it develops for driving autonomy purposes. But why use it for rain sensing if even the best case scenario, with many years, and much more training data, is that it becomes as good as - but no better than - existing, simpler systems for rain sensing?

Yup. If AI happens to bring the ability to sense rain really well and ‘for free’ as part of its other duties, then by all means save the 50p a rain sensor costs and transition. But until then, don’t.