Warning! New Brake Pads and Discs after 13,000 miles

[Plagued]

The tesla differential is fairly basic, so it should be using the brakes for traction control if it detects excessive slip on one side.
So you can use your brakes by not braking and going as fast as you can in the wet
I would have asked them to provide you with the old parts to inspect them as there is no way they should warp, this indicates excessive heat, which could be caused by a stuck caliper. Part of a suggested yearly service is to grease the caliper pins each year and scrub down the back and edges of the pads to ensure nothing seizes due to the little use they get.

 

[tomorrowman]

maybe that's why the cars phantom brake while on autopilot
Amazing !! Tesla think of everything (I'm ignoring the threat to life and limb courtesy of rear ending risk when it does it)

 

[Sparkeur]

It's OK, relax. I've solved the problem.

A set of Racing Brake Carbon Ceramic discs will do the job. £21,450 including VAT.

Tesla S RacingBrake Carbon Ceramic Brake upgrade Kit

*Other makes are available at equally affordable cost.

 

[tsh2]

I left my last car (mild hybrid) at an airport for a week in snow. Came back to find the disks rusted solid but possible to break free (I think it was the fronts which were worse). It was a bit noisy for a few miles, but not terrible. In total, that car had 2 sets of disks in 130k miles/10 years - although I did need to re-surface the disks a couple of times before risking an MOT. At least these disks were only ~£20 each.

 

[Gasman23]

Just visited service centre after noise coming from brakes.
Model 3 performance 1 year old 13000 miles with full regen brake setting on.

Needs new pads and discs at £800+

This is my 4th EV and first brake replacement so a bit shocked.

Just a warning to others to switch full regen off from time to time

i would want to inspect the discs/pads. As said above there’s an argument of ‘not fit for purpose’ if replacement is required so soon with little use.

Can the discs not just be skimmed?

 

[esrandl]

I had to replace the disks on my Prius, when the pads were barely worn at all. Happened twice, on different cars, at around 40,000 to 50,000 miles. Both times it had nothing to do with wear, it was disc corrosion, caused by the brakes not getting enough use to "wear themselves clean" as the technician put it. Regen braking was the culprit, as it seems that, for some usage patterns (like my fairly slow speed commuting journeys) the friction brakes weren't doing enough work to clean the discs of surface rust. Always amazes me how quickly surface rust appears. Often seems that disks will turn red with surface rust overnight in wet weather.

I had to replace the disks on my Prius, when the pads were barely worn at all. Happened twice, on different cars, at around 40,000 to 50,000 miles. Both times it had nothing to do with wear, it was disc corrosion, caused by the brakes not getting enough use to "wear themselves clean" as the technician put it. Regen braking was the culprit, as it seems that, for some usage patterns (like my fairly slow speed commuting journeys) the friction brakes weren't doing enough work to clean the discs of surface rust. Always amazes me how quickly surface rust appears. Often seems that disks will turn red with surface rust overnight in wet weather.

Concur, this is a known problem on EV's.

If you use high regen, you effectively DONT use your brakes. The problem is that the pads and rotors corrode without being cleaned every so often.

I recently replaced a set of disks and pads on a Chevy Volt that became dramatically corroded in up state NY (likely due to snow/salt) and my daughter was using the regen paddle to do most of her braking. Pads just eroded around edges and only the center worked any more. This led to serious scoring in center of disk, plus the corrosion on disk was uneven on edges (had depressed areas into disk itself) so it wasn't worth turning disk. It was amazing how bad it was, and the car had just over 30k miles..

Beware if you live near coast or road salted areas. You probably want to give your brakes a good hard stop every so often just to clean them. Leaving salt/humidity on them will definitely cause problems.

 

[Adopado]

Generally motorcycle brake disks seem to be much better at resisting surface corrosion. Unlike with some cars which can gain a covering of surface rust in a matter of hours when left standing this could not be tolerated if the disc was fully exposed to view such as on a bike wheel. In most cases the rust is a purely cosmetic issue that rapidly disappears with normal use but it looks like EVs need to take the bike approach and make them more resistant.

 

[webbah]

Generally motorcycle brake disks seem to be much better at resisting surface corrosion. Unlike with some cars which can gain a covering of surface rust in a matter of hours when left standing this could not be tolerated if the disc was fully exposed to view such as on a bike wheel. In most cases the rust is a purely cosmetic issue that rapidly disappears with normal use but it looks like EVs need to take the bike approach and make them more resistant.

In fairness I'd be certain that bikes use the brakes quite often vs EV's with Regen. That said, it could be quite simple to programmatically have the car routinely clean the pads against the rotors to keep them clean.

 

[Adopado]

In fairness I'd be certain that bikes use the brakes quite often vs EV's with Regen.

Yes, indeed they do ... but some (non EV) cars can use their brakes heavily all day and still have a rusty coating the following morning. To be fair to Tesla the brake discs are not unduly prone to visibly obvious surface rust it's just that they have a much greater challenge due to the lack of regular use.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Generally motorcycle brake disks seem to be much better at resisting surface corrosion. Unlike with some cars which can gain a covering of surface rust in a matter of hours when left standing this could not be tolerated if the disc was fully exposed to view such as on a bike wheel. In most cases the rust is a purely cosmetic issue that rapidly disappears with normal use but it looks like EVs need to take the bike approach and make them more resistant.

Good point.

My bike ( a 1985 Yamaha converted to electric propulsion) still has it's original front brake disc, and that shows no sign of corrosion at all. It looks to me as if it's made from stainless steel, presumably because bike discs are often going to get wet and would look pretty unsightly if they rusted up all the time.

I believe that stainless has a lower coefficient of friction than cast steel, so bike disks have to be larger in diameter to get enough braking force, something that's perhaps a more limiting factor for cars. Stainless undoubtedly costs a lot more, and can suffer from discolouration if the disc gets too hot, too, but I'd have thought that there should be some way to use a corrosion resistant material to make disc brakes for EVs, given that the friction brakes get a lot less use.

Probably something that needs some serious R&D to develop a material that will resist corrosion, provide the required emergency braking capability and yet remain affordable. No doubt, as EVs become mainstream, this may be something that gets some attention. There were rumours that Toyota changed the disc brake material on the Prius, because having the brake discs corrode enough to fail the car's first MOT was fairly common at one time. I had this happen, yet thinking about it, my last Prius was five years old, had covered about 60,000 miles when I sold it, and had no sign of the brake disc problems I'd seen on previous cars.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Part of the problem is that EV brakes often don't get properly bedded in.
Bedding transfers a layer of pad material onto the disc surface which helps prevent rust and corrosion.
Most of the Model 3s I've looked at closely have discs which look like they've just come out of the factory, so brakes aren't bedded and discs will rust overnight. Also unbedded pads aren't in full contact with the discs so some areas will not be cleaned by heavy braking anyway.

 

[Jason71]

Good point.

My bike ( a 1985 Yamaha converted to electric propulsion) still has it's original front brake disc, and that shows no sign of corrosion at all. It looks to me as if it's made from stainless steel, presumably because bike discs are often going to get wet and would look pretty unsightly if they rusted up all the time.

I believe that stainless has a lower coefficient of friction than cast steel, so bike disks have to be larger in diameter to get enough braking force, something that's perhaps a more limiting factor for cars. Stainless undoubtedly costs a lot more, and can suffer from discolouration if the disc gets too hot, too, but I'd have thought that there should be some way to use a corrosion resistant material to make disc brakes for EVs, given that the friction brakes get a lot less use.

Probably something that needs some serious R&D to develop a material that will resist corrosion, provide the required emergency braking capability and yet remain affordable. No doubt, as EVs become mainstream, this may be something that gets some attention. There were rumours that Toyota changed the disc brake material on the Prius, because having the brake discs corrode enough to fail the car's first MOT was fairly common at one time. I had this happen, yet thinking about it, my last Prius was five years old, had covered about 60,000 miles when I sold it, and had no sign of the brake disc problems I'd seen on previous cars.

I think you are right a new material is required but not just for this reason.
I have been caught out a couple of times in wet cold weather finding the brakes not working well when I needed them because they were cold and wet from using regen most of the time.
So the new material needs to be corrosion resistant but with less warm up. Doesn't matter if it wears more quickly since its used less.
Stainless is probably no good since we need more stopping power not less due to the weight. push bikes us aluminium but that corrodes worse than iron if you keep scraping the oxide off the surface so that is no good either.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

I think you are right a new material is required but not just for this reason.
I have been caught out a couple of times in wet cold weather finding the brakes not working well when I needed them because they were cold and wet from using regen most of the time.
So the new material needs to be corrosion resistant but with less warm up. Doesn't matter if it wears more quickly since its used less.
Stainless is probably no good since we need more stopping power not less due to the weight. push bikes us aluminium but that corrodes worse than iron if you keep scraping the oxide off the surface so that is no good either.

Maximum braking efficiency is reached when the pad transfers some material as I said above, so the friction comes from pad against pad effectively, not pad against metal. Iron discs are still the best choice for most cars because of their properties - thermal stability, cooling, crack resistance, cost etc. There's a lot more to it than corrosion resistance.

I've had track pads in my Model 3 and the inital bite, when stone cold, is miles better than the standard pads. it's the pad compound which makes the most difference when it comes to bite and feel. Bedding the OE pads makes a huge difference too. Much more than changing fluid and fitting braided lines.

As I keep saying, the biggest issue with Model 3 brakes is the lack of bedding.

 

[Jeeves]

Also unbedded pads aren't in full contact with the discs so some areas will not be cleaned by heavy braking anyway.

Does that mean that you’re screwed if you didn’t do it when you got the car, or is it worth having a go anyway?

 

[Needsdecaf]

Here is a good practice to seat the pads when new, or if you start to hear any noise like squeaking:

1) Find a nice open road without traffic (or speed cameras) and do this in decent weather vs during a rainy or foggy day with mist
2) Switch on low regen
3) Accelerate to 80-90 Kmh (50-60 Mph or so) and then apply firm and consistent braking down to 10 Kmh. Do not vary the pressure and be firm enough to start to generate some heat from the pads to the rotors.
4) Drive for 30 seconds at decent spead to cool slightly
5) repeat this process at least 5 times, I do it 6-8 times
6) VERY IMPORTANT: once this process is completed do not then park the car. Drive the car on the highway for 15 minutes or so to cool everything down. If you park right away you can risk having the heat transfer pad material in one spot to the rotors.

Your rotors and pads should now be in great shape with a perfect spread of pad material to the rotors. No noise, and excellent bite.

Exactly. Was going to post exactly this. This is the standard procedure for bedding brakes. For those of you who aren't aware, steel friction brakes (and I think perhaps carbon ceramics as well but not 100% sure) actually produce their friction not by the pad on steel connection, but by the pad on a layer of the friction material deposited on the discs. Think of melting the pad material, spreading an even layer on the disc with a knife, and allowing it to cool. That's what actually "bites" when the pad is pressed onto the disc.

Too many people today are fleeced by greedy or ignorant mechanics who say "your brakes are warped" when the customer complaint is juddering brake pedal upon application. That's usually nonsense. Modern discs, even in regular ICE cars, rarely get hot enough to actually warp and change shape. Heck, even the Porsche guys I know who track don't "warp" their brakes, although those brakes are pretty well designed for that much heat. In a normal car, it'll take you driving down a long hill or multiple hard stops like tracking to actually ruin a rotor.

What you are feeling is uneven deposits of pad material on the rotors. Generally performing the bedding procedure above will get rid of the high spots and even things out. If it's really bad, the rotors can be taken off and hit with a grinding wheel to clean them up. But this is too difficult for shops to do, so they just sell you an un-needed set of rotors and likely pads too even if you don't need them.

On a low mileage EV that uses heavy regen, I doubt that your brakes were even worn 10% of their life. Unfortunately, sounds like you fell victim to a service center that doesn't know / care.

Does that mean that you’re screwed if you didn’t do it when you got the car, or is it worth having a go anyway?

You can do it at any time. And you can re-do it if things get a little wonky. See above.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

I wonder if it would be feasible to cost engineer the manufacturing processes used for ceramic composite brake discs, such that they became an affordable option?

Tesla seem to be keen to explore novel manufacturing methods in other areas, like their new single piece, pressure die cast, aluminium alloy rear subframe. They must have put some serious effort into engineering that solution, as they apparently had to develop a new alloy in order to get it to work. Perhaps if that team was given the task of looking at making cost-effective, corrosion resistant, brake discs they might come up with a novel way to produce them.

 

[Needsdecaf]

I had to replace the disks on my Prius, when the pads were barely worn at all. Happened twice, on different cars, at around 40,000 to 50,000 miles. Both times it had nothing to do with wear, it was disc corrosion, caused by the brakes not getting enough use to "wear themselves clean" as the technician put it. Regen braking was the culprit, as it seems that, for some usage patterns (like my fairly slow speed commuting journeys) the friction brakes weren't doing enough work to clean the discs of surface rust. Always amazes me how quickly surface rust appears. Often seems that disks will turn red with surface rust overnight in wet weather.

My rotors will be rusty less than an hour after I wash the car. Once that happens I take it out around the block, get it up to about 35 MPH and put it in Neutral, then let the brakes drag lightly, then harder. That clears them off and all good.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Does that mean that you’re screwed if you didn’t do it when you got the car, or is it worth having a go anyway?

Depends how far down the line you are. If corrosion has built up enough and parts of the pad are disintegrating, then yes you're screwed.

 

[Needsdecaf]

I wonder if it would be feasible to cost engineer the manufacturing processes used for ceramic composite brake discs, such that they became an affordable option?

Tesla seem to be keen to explore novel manufacturing methods in other areas, like their new single piece, pressure die cast, aluminium alloy rear subframe. They must have put some serious effort into engineering that solution, as they apparently had to develop a new alloy in order to get it to work. Perhaps if that team was given the task of looking at making cost-effective, corrosion resistant, brake discs they might come up with a novel way to produce them.

Carbon-ceramics are currently too expensive. The manufacturing process to make the discs is very time consuming as well as energy consuming.

Wonder why carbon-ceramic brakes are so expensive? Watch how they’re made
.

Porsche is getting around this using tungsten-carbide coated discs, that have a mirror like finish. They are resistant to surface staining and oxidation and perfect for low use situations like an EV.

Brake-Dust Busters: New Brake Rotors Promise to Keep Wheels Clean

Porsche Tungsten Carbide Brake Rotors - Engineering Explained

 

[Needsdecaf]

Depends how far down the line you are. If corrosion has built up enough and parts of the pad are disintegrating, then yes you're screwed.

Yes, but you can swap pads and just clean up the rotors and re-use them.