That doesn't mean it costs you less, it just hides the cost. It's just a different way of pricing it. I'm sure they'll probably include it in the future since people want 'free' maintenance included in the cost of the car.
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That doesn't mean it costs you less, it just hides the cost. It's just a different way of pricing it. I'm sure they'll probably include it in the future since people want 'free' maintenance included in the cost of the car.
The only problem here is that you can only compare the first 4 years. Tesla has no price structure past that point. If you average your first 4 years only add up to $425 (even if you count 2008 in stead of 2004 you only have $570 per year). And if you drove over $50k miles in that time frame the Tesla cost would be even more. The price is on par, not less.
I expect to pay maintenance costs. I expected them to be less than an ICE cost. That isn't the case for the first 4 years. After that I think the maintenance on the Tesla will start to be an advantage (even at $600 per 12,000 miles) over an ICE. I think the turning point will be at about 100,000 miles though, as a modern ICE pretty much cruises until then. But then spark plugs, transmission work, water pumps, all start to die. And around $150k-$200k you have to start worrying about major transmission and engine repairs. The model S should need filters, and maybe some coolant pumps and keep going strong.
Including the service in the price of the car though puts it out where people can see it before they buy the car. Personally, my problem is not with spending the money on service/maintenance, it's with Tesla doing a particularly egregious bait and switch.
There still is nowhere on the Tesla site, except for GeorgeB's reply to the service blog post, that says you have to pay for the warranty. GeorgeB made a big deal about legally required footnotes, but there isn't one on the Specifications page where the warranty is described, it just says it's "included". So what else that's "included" will have to be paid for and when will it be announced? For example, what is the battery warranty for years 5 - 8 going to cost?
The problem isn't money, it's trust.
There still is nowhere on the Tesla site, except for GeorgeB's reply to the service blog post, that says you have to pay for the warranty. GeorgeB made a big deal about legally required footnotes, but there isn't one on the Specifications page where the warranty is described, it just says it's "included". So what else that's "included" will have to be paid for and when will it be announced? For example, what is the battery warranty for years 5 - 8 going to cost?
The problem isn't money, it's trust.
That would depend on the cost of the part and the difficulty of the what's required to repair or maintain it. In your first sentence you mention that you can't compare maintenance of an EV to an ICE, so consequently the costs for maintaining the EV/ICE components probably shouldn't be assumed to be comparable either.
Take an absurd extreme example of a part that's highly reliable, but requires nano-scale molecular inspection by a PHD level physicist each year. Maintenance would be pretty expensive in that case. Obviously a crazy example, but I can believe Tesla's EV parts would require a different sort of inspection/maintenance than an ICE part. Not PHD nano-tech different
, but different enough to be meaningful.I can say I'm disappointed the service charge isn't significantly lower than an ICE and I think Tesla's PR led us to believe it would be, but I don't have enough knowledge to say if the charge is actually unreasonable.
George Parrott
Member
I have in other places, already complained about the amount of this service charge. I will continue to protest and I will continue to look and consider ANY other option from Acura (NSX) or even Cadillac (ELR) before I finalize my delivery of the Model S. I am OK with paying for a very well-equipped Model S (I am looking at close to $100k out the door), but I absolutely HATE continued regular payments for anything. I have a large solar array on our home, because I don't like monthly electric or gas bills, and even the MUCH, MUCH more complex Chevy Volt has nothing like "service costs" of $600 per year. I would be comfortable with a cost structure of something like $2-300/year for the first 3 years and then maybe $500/year for years 4-5 of ownership with another jump to maybe $600/year for years 6-8. But starting at $600/year for what is "service" is simply padding the warranty risk cost back to the consumer!!!!! EVs are simple in terms of support/service demands, so the service prepaid costs should be inline with those expectations. Big issues of support cost to Tesla will be warranty covered anyway!
It is $475/year if you prepay for 4 years and don't require unlimited Ranger visits. You likely have a service center within driving distance since you live in California. These payments are obviously part of an early adopter penalty if you want to call it that. They cover service and part costs, hiring new Rangers and building out new service centers and other expenses. Tesla is a young, growing company burning through a lot of cash. Comparing costs to a $35k Volt which is being sold for a loss and that costs is being absorbed into a multi-billion dollar company is hard to do.
I agree that Tesla should just build part of the cost into the car and lower the remainder to $300/year lets say. People would have an easier time with that.
I agree with you about regular payments. I also have solar panels and have not paid for electricity for several years. Think the Cadillac ELR is a sharp car and have been watching it for a while. I feel the way this service plan is being done is horrible just like the additional charge to the 60k battery supercharging. I don't buy for one minute the story George B posted about it being a mistake. I feel as if Tesla is changing things as they go along and the res holders are just supposed to go along with it and all is forgiven. It doesn't work that way. Have a meeting, decide what is included and what is extra come up with a charge for the extras and make it public, period. No more George B posts with excuses. Just the facts and make it final or keep it unresolved. But to go from TBD to included would cause most people to think supercharging was included not hardware included and 1000.00 to activate the hardware. If I did that in my business I would be called a cheat and have the State down on me so fast I would not know what happened.
Software updates should not be considered a maintenance item for the customer to pay. The only exception would be if it enabled new features that weren't promised when the car was delivered. Software development is usually a capital expense for almost everything. The cost of bug fixes should be borne by the manufacturer.
For Tesla to defend their opportunistic maintenance fee by saying it includes "software updates" is ludicrous. New features that are enabled by software should be optional and sold that way.
Is anyone else concerned that releasing the maintenance schedule AFTER they've already priced the service plan will lead to it containing exaggerated items that may not actually be required, in order to justify the mandatory service plans?
"We have to tweak the "fluxcapaciitorgizmodrive" every 12 months. It's very technical, you wouldn't understand."
"We have to tweak the "fluxcapaciitorgizmodrive" every 12 months. It's very technical, you wouldn't understand."
For comparison, I took some friends for a ride who aren't into EVs at all and they absolutely loved the car. I told them about this maintenance controversy and they thought the $475-600 fee seemed appropriate for a car like the Model S. I realize not everyone feels that way.
strider
Active Member
Well, we have the RAV4-EV's maintenance schedule already and since the drivetrain is the same as the 40kWh model S there isn't a ton of stuff they can jam in there w/o opening themselves up to criticism.
Rifleman
Now owns 2 Model S's!!!
Part of the problem is that "a car like the Model S" can mean anything from a $50,000 daily driver to a $110,000 high performance beast of a car. While the service fees for the P85 are in line with its competition, for a base 40 kWh model, it represents a significant increase in service cost over the competition. To make matters even muddier, many 40 kWh buyers are comping the car against brands like Buick, Acura and Lexus, not against cars that also start at 50k, as the lifetime fuel savings of the Model S bring the lifetime operating cost into the same range as the lower level premium vehicles from these brands. The fee of $600-$700 (depending on where you live) per 12500 miles completely breaks this cost comparison. The price point for owners signing up for the 4 year plan is better, but the required up front cost would eat into the money available for a down payment for owners who are financing, and is not an option for many.
Would the complaining have been louder or softer if Tesla had announced an across-the-board price increase of $2000 in January, and then announced in September that the "white glove" 4yr/50k miles service plan was free?
It would have been softer. As i previously said, I have owned Audi, MB, Lexus vehicles, and either the manufacturer or the dealer has provided free service for the cars during the warranty period. I recently looked at the Caddy XTS, and it includes free maintennace during the warranty period. I've only had to pay for service with the Toyota Prius during the warranty period, but that cost less than $100/year. And even toyota now provides free maintenance for 2 years.
To me, what Tesla is doing has a bad appearance, and is out of line with other car manufacturers. I understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch, you pay for service one way or the other. But building the cost into the price of the vehicle, as the other car manufacturers are doing, is the better approach. At the least, it would make Tesla look consistent with the offerings of Caddy, BMW, et al.
To me, what Tesla is doing has a bad appearance, and is out of line with other car manufacturers. I understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch, you pay for service one way or the other. But building the cost into the price of the vehicle, as the other car manufacturers are doing, is the better approach. At the least, it would make Tesla look consistent with the offerings of Caddy, BMW, et al.
i'm just not sure i get that attitude. Obviously a lot of people feel that way (that it would be better to roll the service price into the car price and basically hide it from the buyer), but if you're paying the exact same amount anyway, wouldn't you rather know what the breakdown is? It just seems like people are saying - go ahead and hide these costs that you are still paying, and i'll feel better about buying the car... just don't get it.
Imagine this conversation in 2009.
Me: "Darling, I want our next car to be electric."
Wife: "Will it hold our kids? If not, I want that minivan."
Me: "No, no, look here, 5+2 seats, $50k, up to 300 miles of range."
Wife: "Ok, go ahead, and make that reservation payment."
in 2011:
Me: "Tesla announced pricing. Batteries come in steps $10k for 70 miles each."
Wife: "Sure the base version will do?"
Me: "we really should consider the next size. And we must order air suspension or defer our reservation even further."
In August 2012:
Me: "Darling, great news! Supercharging is included in our mid-size battery model. That's at least a $500 donation towards us!"
Wife: "What's supercharging?"
In September 2012:
Me: "Uhm, we need that service plan to maintain our warranty. That's another $1900." :redface:
Wife: "Ok tell me what other cost increases are in the pipeline? We're approaching $90k with that $50k base model, BTW." :frown:
Me: <mumbling perhaps a data plan, dunno, cold navigate with maps or smartphone instead... satellite radio subscription... set of winter tires would be good, we're talking 19 inch rims here, these start at $1000... need electrician to work on our garage.../> :redface:
In October 2012:
Me: "Remember that supercharging option? Well I dunno if we still need it but now it's $2k."
Wife: ...
It would have been a lot easier to start this with $52k instead of $50k. It's still uphill work to sell this vehicle to me, and I've pretty much stopped talking about it to other people.
Me: "Darling, I want our next car to be electric."
Wife: "Will it hold our kids? If not, I want that minivan."
Me: "No, no, look here, 5+2 seats, $50k, up to 300 miles of range."
Wife: "Ok, go ahead, and make that reservation payment."
in 2011:
Me: "Tesla announced pricing. Batteries come in steps $10k for 70 miles each."
Wife: "Sure the base version will do?"
Me: "we really should consider the next size. And we must order air suspension or defer our reservation even further."
In August 2012:
Me: "Darling, great news! Supercharging is included in our mid-size battery model. That's at least a $500 donation towards us!"
Wife: "What's supercharging?"
In September 2012:
Me: "Uhm, we need that service plan to maintain our warranty. That's another $1900." :redface:
Wife: "Ok tell me what other cost increases are in the pipeline? We're approaching $90k with that $50k base model, BTW." :frown:
Me: <mumbling perhaps a data plan, dunno, cold navigate with maps or smartphone instead... satellite radio subscription... set of winter tires would be good, we're talking 19 inch rims here, these start at $1000... need electrician to work on our garage.../> :redface:
In October 2012:
Me: "Remember that supercharging option? Well I dunno if we still need it but now it's $2k."
Wife: ...
It would have been a lot easier to start this with $52k instead of $50k. It's still uphill work to sell this vehicle to me, and I've pretty much stopped talking about it to other people.
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Adm
Active Member
I am getting the 40kWh battery and I really, no really, don't care as long as Tesla takes good care of my Model S.
I am quite surprised on how this thread just keeps going on repeating the same (some valid) arguments time after time after time.. I'd say: Get organized and write a letter to Tesla if you really care this strongly about this issue.
I am quite surprised on how this thread just keeps going on repeating the same (some valid) arguments time after time after time.. I'd say: Get organized and write a letter to Tesla if you really care this strongly about this issue.
The problem is exactly that, you don't know.
The cost of the service contract is nowhere on the Tesla site except buried in a response to a blog post. If it were up front in the price, there'd be no question of what the cost was.
Then there's the issue of what will the 5 to 8 year battery warranty cost. Since Tesla seems to have a policy of charging for "included" items and notifying people only after purchase, aka "bait and switch", there's a real question of what's in store.
