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First of all data points that are picked up from the delivery monitoring thread after the fact is not an evidence of how Tesla operates in general, just an evidence how it operated for these two data points.

Two more data points than you have brought forward. I must assume you didn't examine the thread closely because you'd have found that it's not just those two that follow this pattern. See Even voorstellen... for example. Ordered Jan 30th, car was ready for delivery Mar 3th in Tilburg. He ultimately refused delivery on that date due to an issue with the screen and final delivery was Mar 15th after the SC got around to fixing it. 4 or 6 weeks depending on how you look at it.

Another one is the fact that you assume that there is information on deducing what waiting time is between the days when projected delivery was updated. You assign a two week period as the end of the delivery window, and then keep that date fixed as time passes after the day of the projected delivery, which in effect shortens wait time as we move in time from one date of the update to the next one.

Again there is every indication that this is how Tesla works in Europe from the actual delivery thread. Let me put it this way : if I order a car today for delivery in let's say Belgium, when will I get it? If we assume you are right, then there is no information out there we can use to answer that question. We must wait for the next update. But then it makes no sense at all for Tesla to mention a delivery time at all. The only sensical interpretation of what is on the site is that this is a date they think they will make based on the information they have today. That means that as long as the date remains the same while time progresses, they plan to have a shorter and shorter delivery cycle.

The problem is that this is a conjecture, and not a real data point.

I suppose this is the crux of the difference. I consider actual deliveries as observable data points on what the number means.

The overall trend line can be added on top of that, for longer periods that include multiple data points for several Dates of Update.

A trendline is only valid if the underlying samples actually sample the same phenomenon. Which in your case they don't because Tesla switched the severity of it's underlying batching which means that your samples skip deeper and deeper dips. This means that your underlying values change nature and therefore what is calculated does not actually represent a valid trend line.

Of course it is not. The 6 week delivery is absolutely certainly IS fictitious.

Except then for that guy I linked above.

Second, as you are well aware the in transit/European assembly time is 6 weeks (and you recently even indicated that it is now more like 8 weeks), so how a TOTAL wait time for European deliveries can be 6 weeks? It is fictitious wait time indeed.

While I didn't explicitly say it, I assumed it was clear from the context we were speaking about the average shipping time. If you happen to be produced at exactly the right time (just before the train leaves which arrives just before the boat leaves, just before it is busy in Tilburg etc) then it is obviously lower.
 
I have written this several times already but I guess you haven't read my other posts. We do know the wait for the MX and even at a high production rate of 800 that backlog is just dissapointing compared to what it was before Tesla even revealed the car. Problem is that if demand trend continues for the MS, the MX needs to sell around 800/week to fill the remainder of the new 2k capacity. Those 10400 cars per month are almost as much as the total MX demand has been so far in the years leading up to the reveal and the 9 months after until now.

If Tesla gets the production capacity to 2k/week in a month as planned I think they will run through their backlog in less than 3 months leaving them short of sufficient demand to fill the 2k in Q4. I think even a 75k figure for the year would be quite dissapointing to the markets. The expectation all the way back to late 2014 was exiting 2015 at a 100k/year runrate, and Elon has talked about the X demand at least matching the S, even though I think he has toned it down lately. If they can't even meet 80k going into the year with a 10k+ backlog it is not great.

This along with the increased cash burn could be very burdensome on the stock in the next 12 months. On the other hand of course we have the positive of M3 demand being very strong, perhaps this hype could keep the stock afloat even if the other 2 points looks very grim, but I doubt it (in the short/medium term).

Dennis is right, we don't know the demand for X, you keep thinking that your wait time data is reliable but it isn't. X is under a managed order rate and therefore kept low. You should use order rate and not demand as terms to avoid being wrong. Demand implies an equilibrium.

Is it possible they miss guidance because of X incoming order rate in 2016? Sure, but I think you overestimate that probability heavily and even if they would miss guidance it would not be proof of long time demand of X being soft either but I agree the probability of long term demand not being as good as for S obviously increases if they miss. There are so many other factors though that points in other directions for long term demand of X so just a couple of quarters are too little data.

If you want to argue for a short term bear position in 2016 to Feb 2017 based on guidance miss because of X production being too low because of too low order rate then I am not saying you are necessarily wrong in that, It can happen, sure. But I think you overestimate the chance of that happen as Tesla has been close to guidance historically. But you keep using other terms which has further implications and does not follow at all from the data and methods you use.
 
I have read in the past that Tesla sometimes ships cars in popular configurations to Europe before orders have been placed, in anticipation of orders - a bit like inventory cars, except that they are probably matched to orders before they get there and are never used as demo cars. This can help ensure deliveries by the end of the quarter.

However, I don't remember exactly when and where I read this - it may just have been in advance of the tax increase last year (I think that was in the Netherlands?), rather than a regular policy.
 
Two more data points than you have brought forward. I must assume you didn't examine the thread closely because you'd have found that it's not just those two that follow this pattern. See Even voorstellen... for example. Ordered Jan 30th, car was ready for delivery Mar 3th in Tilburg. He ultimately refused delivery on that date due to an issue with the screen and final delivery was Mar 15th after the SC got around to fixing it. 4 or 6 weeks depending on how you look at it.



Again there is every indication that this is how Tesla works in Europe from the actual delivery thread. Let me put it this way : if I order a car today for delivery in let's say Belgium, when will I get it? If we assume you are right, then there is no information out there we can use to answer that question. We must wait for the next update. But then it makes no sense at all for Tesla to mention a delivery time at all. The only sensical interpretation of what is on the site is that this is a date they think they will make based on the information they have today. That means that as long as the date remains the same while time progresses, they plan to have a shorter and shorter delivery cycle.



I suppose this is the crux of the difference. I consider actual deliveries as observable data points on what the number means.



A trendline is only valid if the underlying samples actually sample the same phenomenon. Which in your case they don't because Tesla switched the severity of it's underlying batching which means that your samples skip deeper and deeper dips. This means that your underlying values change nature and therefore what is calculated does not actually represent a valid trend line.



Except then for that guy I linked above.



While I didn't explicitly say it, I assumed it was clear from the context we were speaking about the average shipping time. If you happen to be produced at exactly the right time (just before the train leaves which arrives just before the boat leaves, just before it is busy in Tilburg etc) then it is obviously lower.

I think that you are reiterating data that indicate that your approach works, while ignoring the points I made that indicate that your approach works some times, but not all the times, and , therefore, skews the data. Here are examples that I'd alluded to before and you did not address in the response:
  • The batching of cars and then putting them on hold till production for European cars starts would be going on til approximately January 15 (first two weeks of the quarter dedicated to production of cars slated to Asia/Pacific region). After the 15th and up to the end of the period on Jan 30, in "full maximize Quarter deliveries batching mode" the production would 100% switch to European cars, so your approach on "draw down" of the wait time would not quite work here, but it is exactly as it is shown on your chart.

  • This approach does not represent what is actually happens when Tesla is NOT operating in "full maximize Quarter deliveries batching mode" , either by running uniform production split in first, second and third month of the quarter, as they did in Q3 of 2015, or some combination of the two as they did in Q2 of 2015

  • Then there is example with the fictitious 6 weeks. First I pointed out that it is not possible because just transit/European Assembly time to Europe is 6 weeks, and, in fact you were the one who commented that this transit/assembly time is currently 8 weeks based on the data point obtained in one of the TMC threads on European delivery.

    Then you came up with another data point, that indicated outlier case that had compressed shipping/assembly time. When I pointed this contradiction, you indicated that there is no contradiction because your comment on increased transit/assembly time was regarding the average time. Well, fair enough. So if you recognize that outlier case is not the same as average, how can you insist that fictitious 6 weeks wait time is ok based on the outlier case, while the way it shown on the graph makes it applicable to ALL orders that are received at that point in time?

    I think that this illustrates well that my initial assessment about 6 weeks wait time for European delivery shown on the graph is fictitious indeed, and I believe that it misrepresents the actual data.

  • There was also the point that I made about your approach resulting in accounting for zero cars delivered in the second half of March-First half of April.

In addition, I do not have your data series, and actually do not have a detailed description of your method either, which would be helpful to make sure that my understanding of it is correct. I've analyzed couple of other periods from your chart for Europe, and was not able to justify/explain the graph based on my understanding of your method as I was able to deduce it from the various posts on the subject.

I've collected the questions in the following table, where items that I was not able to reconcile are shown in red, along with my understanding on how your method should have worked. I would appreciate if you can clarify the items in red. Until then, I have to say that now I have even more reservations about accuracy of the graph in question than before.

snap1.png


Wait Time.png
 
The batching of cars and then putting them on hold till production for European cars starts would be going on til approximately January 15 (first two weeks of the quarter dedicated to production of cars slated to Asia/Pacific region). After the 15th and up to the end of the period on Jan 30, in "full maximize Quarter deliveries batching mode" the production would 100% switch to European cars, so your approach on "draw down" of the wait time would not quite work here, but it is exactly as it is shown on your chart.

Not exactly sure where you get the significance of Jan 15th. But let's say that's the period when Tesla started to work through their European backlog which was large at that time. All orders during that period of backlog work would go to the end of the batch (near the 30th let's say). So those ordered at the 15th would wait a two weeks before going into production those near the 30th would wait a few days. Draw down works just nicely.

This approach does not represent what is actually happens when Tesla is NOT operating in "full maximize Quarter deliveries batching mode" , either by running uniform production split in first, second and third month of the quarter, as they did in Q3 of 2015, or some combination of the two as they did in Q2 of 2015

Actually European orders are always delivered in batches whatever part of a cycle Tesla is in. This is because shipping creates another hot point, there are only relatively few ships Tesla considers for transport so cars have to wait at Fremont before they are punt on a train together. Again, if you follow the European delivery threads this is more than obvious since people are tracking exactly on which ship their car is.

Then there is example with the fictitious 6 weeks. First I pointed out that it is not possible because just transit/European Assembly time to Europe is 6 weeks, and, in fact you were the one who commented that this transit/assembly time is currently 8 weeks based on the data point obtained in one of the TMC threads on European delivery.

If it's not possible then how come it actually happened? Now I am not a native speaker but even I am pretty sure fictitious means roughly 'imaginary' or 'didn't happen in reality'. Unless you are accusing the fellow (well respected in the Dutch community) forum member of lying I would look for a different adjective.

Then you came up with another data point, that indicated outlier case that had compressed shipping/assembly time. When I pointed this contradiction, you indicated that there is no contradiction because your comment on increased transit/assembly time was regarding the average time. Well, fair enough. So if you recognize that outlier case is not the same as average, how can you insist that fictitious 6 weeks wait time is ok based on the outlier case, while the way it shown on the graph makes it applicable to ALL orders that are received at that point in time?

I assumed it was obvious I meant 'average over time'. Cars that get produced at the same time generally end up on the same transport so there is little to no variation in shipping time. So it makes no sense to talk about averages in shipping time at that point in time, which leaves the only possibility (logically) which is average over time.

I think that this illustrates well that my initial assessment about 6 weeks wait time for European delivery shown on the graph is fictitious indeed, and I believe that it misrepresents the actual data.

I show you actual deliveries happen in time frames consistent with my 'draw down' hypothesis yet you keep refusing to acknowledge their existence even claiming it's impossible. I am not sure how I can convince you anyway else.

There was also the point that I made about your approach resulting in accounting for zero cars delivered in the second half of March-First half of April.

See #891 where I explicitly state such a thing is indeed not plausible and explain how your conclusion is not the only possibility.

In addition, I do not have your data series, and actually do not have a detailed description of your method either, which would be helpful to make sure that my understanding of it is correct. I've analyzed couple of other periods from your chart for Europe, and was not able to justify/explain the graph based on my understanding of your method as I was able to deduce it from the various posts on the subject.

It's pretty simple. At each date of a change of waiting time (when you posted a table basically) I filled in the week number for the current date and the week number for the expected delivery (second week of month for whole months delivery, last (full) week for end of month estimates) Subtract them and there you have it. Do that for each of the three regions at that point in time. If there was a difference in between one region or between models I took an average. As I said earlier, My data suffers from what I see as your problem in the data as well since I really should sample every two weeks. But generally there is an update every two weeks so I let that slide. But even in my graph some dips are erased.

(If possible could you insert tables directly next time, I can't quote them right now, I briefly recap them hopefully it is clear what refers to what)

First of all, you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that it's just not possible to use sub week (or even sub two week) resolution since the input data doesn't provide it. Really, that's just not my opinion, it is truly statistically established fact. Can we agree you don't mention sub week precisions anymore? Secondly, for all your no-drawdown questions, see my answer above. That said to the remaining questions :

4/9 : 10 instead of 11 weeks Switzerland still showed June at that time, important country being two weeks earlier brings the end period from week 15 (end of june) to week 14 (3rd week)
2/6 : 16 versus 17 weeks 70s were already projected for June so averaging with Late May for the 85 gives first week of June as targeted average delivery
2/4 : Same thing but now with May for the 85 bringing the average even more to the front
1/30 : Same thing but now with Late April/June
26/11 : 15.7 to 15 because the March starts on a Tuesday so I considered second week to be week 10.

There you have it. Now maybe you can explain how you accounted for variations in delivery waiting times across models and countries in Europe at a given date? It looks like due to you not understanding how I came to my numbers you didn't take them into consideration at all which makes me question the accuracy of your charts once again (on top of the precision issue which you have yet to argue against or acknowledge) Or update your graphs and trendline to also use the history you conveniently left out (you know the part where Tesla worked itself out of really being production constrained after the Dual/AP announcement with port strikes double whammy)
 
This discrepancy is well known and discussed quite few times here but I really refuse to believe you can still get a model X in June if you order today. There are even original US reservation holders out there without a VIN if I am not mistaken. In this case, following the second page indication makes zero sense to me.
 
This discrepancy is well known and discussed quite few times here but I really refuse to believe you can still get a model X in June if you order today. There are even original US reservation holders out there without a VIN if I am not mistaken. In this case, following the second page indication makes zero sense to me.

But it is an actual ordering page where customer provides his/her data and places the order.
 
It's not very data driven of me to reject it. But on the other hand we know there is some manual fiddling with the wait time pages so it's possible there is just some mistake going on. It just seems weird. When you look at the delivery threads there are plenty of people that report they have a delivery for July, even for the higher capacity cars. Maybe the June delivery is really only for Californians and every order that way just pushes older orders on the east coast to the next quarter? If that's the case then the wait time should swiftly move once they fill up what remain of June capacity with Californian orders.
 
I've gone through all of the accumulated data for the projected wait time as published by Tesla to plot the trend lines for the projected wait time between the points in time when Tesla changed their projections, as well as overall trend line for NA, Europe, and China. The overall trend for the projected wait time for each of the above regions over a little more than one year is slightly up.

The data series that were used to produce charts is included below. Assumptions used:
  • The wait time projected by Tesla is accurate only on the day the update was made
  • Reference to a month means the 1st of the month (June means June 1)
  • Reference to a "late" month means 16th of the month (Late June means June 16)
trend data.png


NA Wait Time Trend.png


Europe Wait Time Trend.png


China Wait Time Trend.png
 
October is at least a little bit more plausible than July for the US or September for Europe or certainly than June for China like it was yesterday. Than means all current left-hand driving backlog should be worked through by early September, roughly 12 weeks.