What’s the dumbest thing you’ve heard about EVs?

[GateFather]

I’ve been told by multiple people that they wouldn’t buy a Tesla because once other car manufacturers start to make EVs, Tesla is doomed. Each time I point out that not only are there many other EV options, but none of them are selling nearly as well as the model 3. Nor are they as safe, fast, or supported by a fast charging network of super chargers. Sometimes I delve into the data conversation and how far ahead Tesla is with their fleet data and valuable that data is. So much FUD with Tesla’s being spread by the bears. This graph from cleantechnica has helped.

 

[jrh007]

I’ve been told by multiple people that they wouldn’t buy a Tesla because once other car manufacturers start to make EVs, Tesla is doomed. Each time I point out that not only are there many other EV options, but none of them are selling nearly as well as the model 3. Nor are they as safe, fast, or supported by a fast charging network of super chargers. Sometimes I delve into the data conversation and how far ahead Tesla is with their fleet data and valuable that data is. So much FUD with Tesla’s being spread by the bears. This graph from cleantechnica has helped.

View attachment 398498

The issue, besides the quality of the product, that a competitor has to address, is the charging infrastructure. Their options are to either (1) lobby government to facilitate a national viable charging infrastructure (2) license from Tesla or (3) create their own. 1 and 2 do no harm to Tesla and only improve Tesla owners experience. 3 is beyond the investment most legacy car makers are willing to put into developing an EV. Tesla has resolved the biggest concern of a prospective EV owner, long-distance range anxiety. Any competitor, however good their product, must address that.

 

[hcdavis3]

Uh... Charlie... is that you???

Back to the relevant subject, and related to this great question....

It used to be quite often that I was asked a similar question.

"What happens if something on your EV "breaks down" in the middle of nowhere?"

My answer has been consistent: "The same thing that happens when a gas car breaks down. You either fix it or you figure out how to tow it."

Most amusing is that this question is typically asked by somebody who has NO idea how to deal with a car that isn't working perfectly. And for some reason, the assumption is that gas cars never stop working.

Way back in my hippy days I had long hair. A woman who also had long hair asked me “ Doesn’t your hair feel weird on the back of your neck?
The only possible answer “ No. does yours?”

 

[Knightshade]

The issue, besides the quality of the product, that a competitor has to address, is the charging infrastructure. Their options are to either (1) lobby government to facilitate a national viable charging infrastructure (2) license from Tesla or (3) create their own. 1 and 2 do no harm to Tesla and only improve Tesla owners experience. 3 is beyond the investment most legacy car makers are willing to put into developing an EV. Tesla has resolved the biggest concern of a prospective EV owner, long-distance range anxiety. Any competitor, however good their product, must address that.

The average American drives between 10-30 miles a day depending if you use mean or median

As a practical matter the need for a national charging infrastructure is VASTLY overstated.

Certainly it'd be required for a tiny subset of drivers who routinely drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day, but the # who would never or rarely more than 1-2 times a year, need that is vastly higher than the # of EVs being produced, or even capable of being produced, for years to come given battery production limits

 

[Bill Price]

Seriously though, once I do get a generator it will be a dual fuel one that works off of propane. Propane doesn't go bad after sitting a while like gas and it still fairly easy to obtain during a prolonged power outage situation.

I've had a full house backup generator ever since I built my house (2004) and it runs on natural gas. You don't have natural gas available?

 

[SalisburySam]

The average American drives between 10-30 miles a day depending if you use mean or median

As a practical matter the need for a national charging infrastructure is VASTLY overstated.

Certainly it'd be required for a tiny subset of drivers who routinely drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day, but the # who would never or rarely more than 1-2 times a year, need that is vastly higher than the # of EVs being produced, or even capable of being produced, for years to come given battery production limits

Er...no. The issue is whether the EV, its range, and its charging infrastructure together can enable a buyer to have that replace an ICE, its range, and its fueling infrastructure. The fact that MOST people drive MOSTLY short distances is irrelevant. Unless you rent a vehicle for trips (I’ve done that but don’t make it a habit), any trip requires a national charging infrastructure. For an EV to be an ICE replacement, that infrastructure is not overrated at all. If anything, as more people convert to an EV, it becomes even more essential.

 

[jrh007]

The average American drives between 10-30 miles a day depending if you use mean or median

As a practical matter the need for a national charging infrastructure is VASTLY overstated.

Certainly it'd be required for a tiny subset of drivers who routinely drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day, but the # who would never or rarely more than 1-2 times a year, need that is vastly higher than the # of EVs being produced, or even capable of being produced, for years to come given battery production limits

You miss my point. It’s not about the need of most drivers. It’s about the consumer’s comfort with the product they are purchasing. It is the ABILITY to go beyond the range that matters to a consumer, not how often they actually do it that impacts their purchase decision.

 

[voip-ninja]

My dentist once asked me, “But how do you recharge the battery if you drive way out in the middle of the desert and run out of electricity?”

To which I replied after he took the drill and suction tube outta my mouth, “But how would you fill up the tank if you drove your gas car out there?”

Silence for a few seconds, just enough time for him to start drilling again...

That question is not dumb. I can easily put a couple of 5 gallon spare gas cans in my truck if I'm going to drive it to the middle of nowhere and extend its range by about 150 miles.

 

[Bill Price]

What's the dumbest thing you've heard about EVs?

Entertaining and humorous! We have a light bulb for "helpful", and "i" for "informative", a thumbs up for "like", thumbs down for "disagree", smiley face for "funny" and heart for "love". Isn't it time we had a for "uninformed" or at least the "i" with a diagonal cross through it to mean that the person is uninformed?

 

[YusufT]

This is the kind of anti EV attitude I just don't get. Like it makes any difference in his life that you drive an EV.....Oh wait a sec....does he own the gas station....LOL!!

Haha I don’t know if he owns it or is a manager but he’s a much older guy that had worked there for YEARS. But after him being rude to me constantly I went to a gas station a block away (this was when Model 3’s first started delivering so people got excited to see them) when I walked inside there was 3 cashiers and they all asked me questions about my car and seemed curious. Then they told me the owner is actually picking up his Model 3 this weekend. The guy owns a gas station and bought a EV.

 

[hcdavis3]

Entertaining and humorous! We have a light bulb for "helpful", and "i" for "informative", a thumbs up for "like", thumbs down for "disagree", smiley face for "funny" and heart for "love". Isn't it time we had a for "uninformed" or at least the "i" with a diagonal cross through it to mean that the person is uninformed?

Gotta be helpful to newbies Bill. I’ve posted some really dumb stuff here, but most everyone has helpful. But I like your emoji.

 

[Knightshade]

Er...no. The issue is whether the EV, its range, and its charging infrastructure together can enable a buyer to have that replace an ICE, its range, and its fueling infrastructure. The fact that MOST people drive MOSTLY short distances is irrelevant.

It's really not though.

It's math.

Right now battery production can't possibly replace more than maybe 2-3% of all new cars sold each year- there's simply not enough batteries to make more EVs than that.

So even if 75% of the population actually needed nationwide fast charging (and it's nowhere near that high a number) there'd still be an order of magnitude more buyers than actual EVs to buy out there.

Unless you rent a vehicle for trips (I’ve done that but don’t make it a habit), any trip requires a national charging infrastructure.

So there's a few flaws here-

First- it'll only apply to trips over 300 miles.... and again these are rare, statistically... second it only applies to trips over 300 miles where you're going over 300 in one shot (rather than stopping for the night where you can charge locally), so an even smaller #.


And again- vastly more people than there are EVs for sale won't need either of those things at all... another large chunk might need it ONCE a year- and for many of them renting for that ONE trip would still come out vastly cheaper than paying for gas, oil changes, etc... the whole rest of the year.

For an EV to be an ICE replacement, that infrastructure is not overrated at all. If anything, as more people convert to an EV, it becomes even more essential.

When the EV market has already saturated the large % of the population that doesn't actually need it, yes, it'll suddenly be vital for them to keep growing.

But the EV market is many many years away from that.

Again- there's simply not enough batteries, and won't be for years.

Tesla has the largest production factory in the world for them- and THEY are battery constrained to barely put out 500k cars a year, and having to choke off their powerwall division of cells to do THAT.... and that's a ton more than other companies are putting out.... in contrast there's ~90 million new cars sold each year.

Heck Audi just announced a 20% cut in production of the Etron this year- because? they can't get enough batteries to hit their original target (and that original target was only ~10% of the # of EVs Tesla is planning to make this year).



in short-If EVs were flooding the market in huge numbers that could eat into high double-digit market share- yes national charging would be a major concern. But that's not the case and won't be for years due to lack of battery production.

But for the small #s of EVs other companies are actually able to produce right now there's huge numbers of buyers who really do NOT need a national charging infrastructure. Far more buyers than they have cars to sell to them.




Look- I love EVs. But this is math. They're not going to "replace" ICE vehicles... or even half of ICE vehicles, or even 1/4 of ICE vehicles, anytime soon, because it's physically impossible to build that many of them

 

[1375mlm]

I was at a car show with my Model X, doors up...
when I was approached by a friendly guy and his friend


Guy: “oh my god.. I can’t believe a TESLA is
here?!!?! This is great. Dude, this is my dream car. I have a picture of this exact car on my desk where I work. One day I hope I’ll have it. I’ve watched so many videos on this one car!

Me: “Glad you like it! Feel free to sit inside, ask me any questions you have”

Guy: “So how much do you have to charge on trips..?”

Me: “Not much more than I would normally stop anyway...”

Guy: “I see. And it’s a 6-Cylinder, right?

Me: “I’m sorry...?”

Guy: “oh wow it’s an 8 cylinder?”

 

[ammulder]

Right now battery production can't possibly replace more than maybe 2-3% of all new cars sold each year- there's simply not enough batteries to make more EVs than that.

So even if 75% of the population actually needed nationwide fast charging (and it's nowhere near that high a number) there'd still be an order of magnitude more buyers than actual EVs to buy out there.

in short- for the small #s of EVs other companies are actually able to produce right now there's huge numbers of buyers who really do NOT need a national charging infrastructure. Far more buyers than they have cars to sell to them.

I'm confused by that logic. Let's say batteries are rare and production of EVs limited. How does that imply that people don't want to be able to go on road trips?

Separately, here's my sample size of 1: I drive relatively little, certainly under 10K miles per year. I go on probably 4 road trips a year of 5+ hours. 99% of the time I'm a passenger. On the face of it, I need an EV that can handle zero extended road trips a year. Nevertheless, I want to be ABLE to. I do a 2-hour trip twice a year into rural NJ, and I'd really like to not have to worry about finding a charger there. If I had to, I could take mostly-highways instead of mostly-rural roads (likely there's a rest stop or hotel with a charger on the highway somewhere), and in fact I often do that on the way back because I'm dog tired and it's a simpler route. But I still don't want to be forced into it to having to find a charger. So whether or not I mathematically require a long-range EV, part of the car culture I've grown up in is that I want the flexibility that long range allows.

 

[Nocturnal]

Here are my calculations for comparisons:

Drive 14,000 miles/year and 2 to 3 long trips per year.

In an ICE, at 30 mpg and between 15-16 gallons/tank = approximately 30 fill ups in a year. Driving from home to gas station and back (9 minutes each way = 18 minutes) plus 2 minutes to fill up (very optimistic as there is usually a wait of 10-15 minutes) = 20 minutes per fill up or a total of 10 hours used to fill up the car.

In my Model 3, I normally charge at home or work while sleeping or working. Time spent plugging in is negligible. I am conservatively spending 2 hours extra (round trip) per long trip - so could take 5 of these per year to be the same as ICE.

I'll just call it a wash in wasted time. Although many may perceive the extra hours spent on a long trip as more valuable than the 20 minutes spent on a regular basis as they forget about what they lost during the year.

Don't forget to add in the time that you would have spent on bio breaks, food etc. during your trips (and the fill up time during trips).

 

[Nocturnal]

My dentist once asked me, “But how do you recharge the battery if you drive way out in the middle of the desert and run out of electricity?”

To which I replied after he took the drill and suction tube outta my mouth, “But how would you fill up the tank if you drove your gas car out there?”

Silence for a few seconds, just enough time for him to start drilling again...

The funny thing is that it's actually easier. Staying in a remote cabin? You probably still have electricity, but maybe not a nearby gas station.

The average American drives between 10-30 miles a day depending if you use mean or median

As a practical matter the need for a national charging infrastructure is VASTLY overstated.

Certainly it'd be required for a tiny subset of drivers who routinely drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day, but the # who would never or rarely more than 1-2 times a year, need that is vastly higher than the # of EVs being produced, or even capable of being produced, for years to come given battery production limits

Yes and no. The #1 hesitation people have with EVs is "but what if I want to drive to California?". People freak out even with a charging network.

No charging infrastructure means your car is a local commuter only. When you do want to visit Grandma you will need to rent a car or use a secondary vehicle.

 

[Gillie]

Maybe this was posted somewhere in the middle... however, somebody asked me about the car's sound pack. I said it had a great sound system. He said "no... the engine sound they have to make so you don't hit pedestrians."

 

[Knightshade]

I'm confused by that logic. Let's say batteries are rare and production of EVs limited. How does that imply that people don't want to be able to go on road trips?

Statistically, most people rarely if ever go on such trips (in the US anyway)

Certainly some do so often. But vastly more than there are EVs for sale don't. Another huge chunk do but so rarely it'd be much cheaper to buy an EV and rent an ICE car once or twice a year than buy gas for/maintain an ICE vehicle all year.


Until that changes, a national charging infrastructure won't be "vital" to having enough buyers for all EVs ever made.

Separately, here's my sample size of 1: I drive relatively little, certainly under 10K miles per year. I go on probably 4 road trips a year of 5+ hours. 99% of the time I'm a passenger. On the face of it, I need an EV that can handle zero extended road trips a year. Nevertheless, I want to be ABLE to. I do a 2-hour trip twice a year into rural NJ, and I'd really like to not have to worry about finding a charger there. If I had to, I could take mostly-highways instead of mostly-rural roads (likely there's a rest stop or hotel with a charger on the highway somewhere), and in fact I often do that on the way back because I'm dog tired and it's a simpler route. But I still don't want to be forced into it to having to find a charger. So whether or not I mathematically require a long-range EV, part of the car culture I've grown up in is that I want the flexibility that long range allows.

Sure. And there's certainly going to be folks who objectively don't "need" a national charging network but just have anxiety that makes them "feel" like they do.

But again until the amount of EVs on the market is more than single-digits of the total market, that's not really going to be a barrier to selling EVs to the plenty-more folks who don't' need such a network, and realize it.


back to sample size of 1 though- I actually drive significantly more than average daily... but still well under the range of my EV. I've only taken one trip in many thousands of miles that actually required using a supercharger (or any public charger)- and if that network didn't exist I'd have just rented something for the long weekend for like $100- which is half the amount I save on not buying gas in a single month with the EV.

So while the SC network is nice, I absolutely don't need it, and it not existing wouldn't have changed my purchase.

 

[PJFW8]

The funny thing is that it's actually easier. Staying in a remote cabin? You probably still have electricity, but maybe not a nearby gas station.

I have done exactly that. 2 days fishing while plugged in to 110/15 amps and I was good to go. I was miles from a broken down gas station with high prices! Cool!

 

[Nocturnal]

I have done exactly that. 2 days fishing while plugged in to 110/15 amps and I was good to go. I was miles from a broken down gas station with high prices! Cool!

I had that realization while in a cabin outside of Denver. Nearest gas station was pretty far away, but I just plugged into the wall outlet. Easy peasey.