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What's Supercharging and Support Worth?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by NiallDarwin, Jul 15, 2018.

?

All else being equal, what dollar value would you place on support and Supercharging?

  1. I wouldn't buy an unsupported non-supercharging car, period.

  2. $50,000

  3. $25,000

  4. $20,000

  5. $15,000

  6. $10,000

  7. $5,000

  8. $2,500

  9. $1,000

  10. Makes no difference to me - $0

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. NiallDarwin

    NiallDarwin Right to Repair!

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    For background, have a read of this thread.

    All else being equal, what dollar value would you place on support and Supercharging?
    ie If there were two otherwise identical cars, one with and one without Supercharging and Support how much less would you pay for the one without support (in USD)?

    If you have data or experience to backup this answer please post it here or share it with me privately.

    Thanks!
     
  2. NiallDarwin

    NiallDarwin Right to Repair!

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  3. ucmndd

    ucmndd Member

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    It's hard to quantify, but given the piss-poor to nonexistent non-Supercharger DC fast charging infrastructure available at the moment, Supercharging is really the difference between the car being practical for me or not. So I answered "I wouldn't buy any non-supercharging car, period". I wouldn't buy an EV that I couldn't perform occasional long-distance travel in with relative ease.
     
    • Like x 4
  4. Travis Denardo

    Travis Denardo VTHokie195

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    I agree completely.

    I take a semi-regular trip to my home town that is a ~260 mile drive, but through some mountains. It's past what my MS85 can handle on a single charge, and any other EV out there too for that matter, especially in the winter. (Unless I stay below 50 mph, maybe...). I make one short supercharger stop there and back and it gets me there with ease. I also now have more options as to which supercharger I choose thanks to the supercharger network expansions. Usually a 15-20 min charge stop. If I were in any other EV that could take advantage of DC fast charging (50kW), that stop would be more like 40-60 minutes, plus there would be the uncertainty if the charger would be active and accessible. The ones I know of on the same path are usually at a business or institution with not much else around, especially after hours. Also, there is probably only one charger at each location too. On the Tesla Supercharger network, I've never had to wait to charge while traveling, and accessibility and availability have never been an issue.

    That example above is just for a relatively short trip of 260 miles one way. I couldn't imagine a trip of more than 1000 miles (which I've done in my MS85) on a non-supercharger EV. Tesla's supercharger network made all the difference when I decided to purchase an EV.
     
    • Like x 3
  5. appleguru

    appleguru Member

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    A starting point to calculate a number for this is to use the electricity “savings” from using supercharging. For me, based on my actual driving and use of the supercharging network over the last 1.5years or so, this works out to about $500/year of ownership. Obviously this number depends a lot on how much you drive, where you are driving to, and how often you use the superchargers to charge vs level 2/at home/etc.

    The next thing worth considering is value added by having access to supercharging. This is, for somewhat obvious reasons, very hard to calculate and will be different for everybody. With that said, again, for me personally, this is a pretty high number; at least $35,000. Specifically, I had decided I wanted an electric car, and was seriously considering getting the Chevy Bolt due to its much lower price point. The model 3 would have been ideal, but only the S or X were available at the time. What pushed me back to purchasing a tesla was the supercharging network. It is the only EV the market that can viably do long distance road trips. Without supercharging, you may as well get a cheaper car from the competition (IMHO).
     
    • Like x 1
  6. bob_p

    bob_p Active Member

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    When the Chevy Bolt was introduced - some viewed it as a "Tesla Killer" - with comparable range to the low end S, lower price, and a few features not present in Tesla vehicles (Apple CarPlay and Android Auto).

    But it lacks a long distance charging network, making it essentially an "around town" car. And the same will happen with any other long range EVs that come to the market - if they lack a long distance charging option - the difficulty in taking road trips will limit the cars to "local only" driver (for almost all drivers).

    While you could estimate the proportional cost of the supercharging network per vehicle sold (likely to be in the range of $1-2K per vehicle), the value really isn't important.

    With a way to easily charge on road trips, most customers will not buy a long range EV, if they can really only drive it around town.

    This will change - alternative long distance networks will become available - and when that happens, Tesla will lose this major advantage - and they'll have to find other ways to compete against much larger competitors...
     
    • Like x 1
  7. tranzndance

    tranzndance Member

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    I couldn't decide on the dollar value since I don't use supercharging enough for finances to support it. However, I have and will use it so the poll option of not considering a car without it makes sense.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. SigNC

    SigNC Member

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    Was this promise put in writing?
     
  9. Yaro

    Yaro Member

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    Quit wasting your time with legal action. I told you in your previous thread, if your car has no errors and is able to charge at home, pay one of the guys that can root it $1,000 and go on your merry way. Tesla sold the vehicle with supercharging and there is no reason for them to disable it. If there was anything wrong with the car in the first place, the car itself wouldn't allow it to supercharge until the errors go away.
     
    • Disagree x 2
  10. appleguru

    appleguru Member

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    According to the OP, yes, it was communicated to him in an email: Supercharging promised but not delivered

    If they really won't play ball (as it seems they won't), the disputes tribunal seems like a very reasonable way to apply some pressure and make some progress. I am not a lawyer (certainly not one in NZ...), but on the face of it it seems that Tesla is in breach of their contract with OP (as written in this email), and owe him at a minimum, restoration to his state prior to entering into this contract.

    Depending on the specific timeline of events (for example, if this email was written prior to purchasing the salvage Tesla or investing time/money into repairs) such damages would include:
    1) Refunding any money paid to Tesla for inspections
    2) Restoring the car's configuration to the state it was in prior to inspection (this might mean enabling supercharging, if this was indeed disabled after OP's communication with Tesla)
    3) (in the case the OP was willing to hand over the car to Tesla to make a point): Paying OP for the amount of money he invested in the car, including all labor, repairs, and original salvage purchase price
    4) (in the case the OP wants to keep the car, as I suspect he does): Paying OP a settlement amount equal to the value lost by not honoring their promise. I would push for a higher value here ($10-$15k); it may not get granted but I think that is easily the number OP would get in extra resale value if the car comes with Tesla supported supercharging vs not (if he were to sell his car on the open market today).
     
    • Like x 2
  11. NiallDarwin

    NiallDarwin Right to Repair!

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    Thanks for the feedback all, keep it coming :)
     
  12. brkaus

    brkaus Active Member

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    I wouldn't purchase a car w/o supercharging or support. I only use $50-100 per year, but it is the inability to travel.

    Salvage cars of all brands are cheaper. I am not willing to take the risk for the savings.
     
    • Like x 1
  13. boonedocks

    boonedocks Active Member

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    48K miles on our March 2017 delivered S100D. -0- superchargers needed so far.
     
  14. NiallDarwin

    NiallDarwin Right to Repair!

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    Nice one. How much less would you have paid for the car without the ability? How much have you appreciated the software updates and do you value them?
     
  15. whitex

    whitex Active Member

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    $500/year? How did you arrive at this number? Are you charging exclusively at superchargers? How much do you drive? How much is your electricity at home?

    Here in WA it's about ~$0.10/KWh at home, so $500 gets you 5,000KWh which is ~15,000miles/year. Most people don't drive that much total each year, and even if they do, they startup each day with at least 220miles charged at home each night. I suspect you are an exceptional case. Tesloop (Tesla taxi) would be another exceptional case.
     
  16. whitex

    whitex Active Member

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    Similar to my wife - 2 years of Tesla driving, ~40K miles, not a single supercharger visit (ok twice, but she was a passenger in my car). I've been driving a Tesla for 5 years, besides one round-trip coast to coast (purely for fun, because I could do it on superchargers), I've used a supercharger maybe 6 times, ChaDeMo 2 times, public L2 ~20 times maybe. The rest is home charging (even when visiting family, just plug in there).
     
    • Like x 1
  17. swegman

    swegman Active Member

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    Reading the original thread, I don't think you are entitled to anything. If I understand the time frame correctly, you purchased a salvage car, then asked Tesla if the car has supercharging and thereafter undertook repairing the car.

    It has been repeatedly noted and is very well publicized that Tesla disables supercharging on all (or virtually all) salvage cars. You should have known that before buying the salvage car. If you didn't, you did not do your homework. But the fact that you asked Tesla about supercharging after having bought the salvage vehicle leads me to believe you definitely knew about Tesla's policy. I'm not saying the policy is right or wrong, just that the policy is out there and based on the facts, I believe you knew it before buying the salvage car.

    It is also well known that it takes time for Tesla to learn which cars are salvage vehicles to which the supercharging is to be disabled. In many (if not most cases), they don't know the title status of a vehicle until the car is brought to the service center.

    Third, you indicate that you asked if the car has supercharging, to which Tesla replied that the car was shipped with supercharging. Tesla's statement was accurate. I do not believe Tesla sells any Model S or X today or in the last few years that does not ship without supercharging capability. So Tesla's response was truthful. The question you should have asked Tesla was telling them you purchased a salvage car and asking if I repair the vehicle, will it have supercharging enabled, and if not, what must I do in order to get supercharging re-enabled. Tesla does not have to guess (or mind read) that you were inquiring about a salvage vehicle. It falls upon you to disclose all the facts to Tesla beforehand. You can not assume that when they repaired some issues with the car they knew it was a salvage vehicle. I submit they did not know that it was a salvage vehicle, as evidenced by the fact that at a later time (e.g., once the car was titled as salvage, they stopped supporting the car. Consider yourself lucky that they fixed something without charging you before they realized the true status of the vehicle.

    Bottom line is in my opinion, you knew the issues with buying a salvage car, and thus can not claim Tesla gave you incorrect information.

    As to the value of having supercharging, it was one reason for me buying a Tesla over another car. For that reason (along with many other reasons), I would never consider buying a salvage Tesla vehicle. You saved lots of money by buying salvage. What you give up is supercharging capability and service support. That "loss" is calculated into the price you paid for the salvage vehicle.

    As to what the OTA software updates are worth, I think that depends on which car you have. Software updates for classic models and AP1 models are very minimal in my opinion. If you have an AP2 or AP2.5 vehicle, software updates are more valuable.

    I do feel bad for you. I also disagree with Tesla's policy. But it has been their policy since the beginning. If it bothers you, don't buy a salvage Tesla. Or buy one understanding that you are giving up certain "features"
     
  18. NiallDarwin

    NiallDarwin Right to Repair!

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    Hi swegman, cheers for the input. I'd rather discussion about the case be kept in the other thread - this one is about the value of the services (or that's how I hoped it would go).
    Briefly:
    Be careful what conclusions you draw about others. Mr Musk has recently, very stupidly failed at this.

    In my case, I bought the vehicle based on a couple of photos on the auction house's website thinking it was going to be parts. When my associates got it into their workshop and performed an analysis on it we quickly realised that the car was thoroughly fixable and it would be a crime to kill it. I had no idea at the time of Tesla's stupid policies about discrimination against salvage. I did, however, know that supercharging is a system that they own and control-a bit like BMW owning fuel stations for example. When I asked if the car has supercharging I assumed the answer would something like, 'yes, free for the first owner' or 'you will have to consult with dept X/Y' or maybe even, 'no'. Given that they said 'yes' funnily enough I thought they meant yes. Silly me.The car had been inspected at a Tesla authorised repairer and so Tesla had every opportunity to know it was written off. But that's moot. If the answer's conditional they should have given a conditional answer.

    If you ask the vendor of a petrol vehicle what diameter the filler pipe is you don't expect to get an answer which turns out to be conditional on whether the car has been in a wreck or not.

    Tesla's policies are odd and should be explained up front. I am making a big noise to help ensure others don't end up in this same pointless waste of time and hopefully get some compensation for Tesla's lack of delivery on promises.
     
  19. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    Most folks in this thread are concentrating on the supercharging aspect here, but for me the bigger issue is support. I dont have the knowledge to fix my own Tesla, and I am not comfortable with the current limited 3rd party repair options. So no support is a complete no-go for me. Teslas aren't reliable enough in my experience to even consider that.

    No supercharging is less of a big deal to me. I dont supercharge much now, and live in California so could survive quite well off of the other DC charging networks if I owned a non-Tesla EV. If the Bolt weren't so dang ugly I may have purchased one. I could easily see myself in a future long range EV from another company based on my personal driving habits.
     
    • Like x 1
  20. boonedocks

    boonedocks Active Member

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    Software updates...invaluable
    Supercharging....maybe $5k less since the value seems to be so large to the masses.
     
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