This I believe is a big misunderstanding wish many have done. JB Straubel have said that they made a 40% improvement from the Roadster to Model S and another 30% improvement to Model 3. A 30% improvement from the Model S 2012 to Model 3 2017 would also fit with what Elon use to talk about, 5-6% improvement every year. If all this would be to Model S it would mean 85*1,3=110 kWh. Elon have also said that they will stop at 100 kWh so I believe they will use the improvement to other things then higher capacity.
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Are we sure these % improvements are not referring to cost with a different % for density? From past earnings, I remember Musk and Straubel talking more about a 30% drop in cost due to things like the efficiency of mass producing the battery.
K-MTG
Sunshade Captain of TMC
Here is the discussion about the 400kW charging infrastructure:
400 kW Tesla Charging via Chargepoint
I presume nobody knows what the individual maximum charging rate of the 2170s currently is. But having around 10000 of these inside the vehicle allows many possible configurations to get things working optimal.
I refer to this Reditt page: Behold! Tesla's new 2170 battery. 5750 mAh • r/flashlight
Where EM refers to 30% improved 'energy density'.
I presume this means energy per volume; probably meaning energy per mass as well.
Deleted because: math is hard.
On teardown, it's been noted that there's ~1/4" (or about 6mm) of dead space between the modules and the floor of the pack. Assuming that may have been designed with the taller cells in mind for future usage, it may be that the 2170's could be packed in to the existing packs with no change in exterior dimensions.
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Good point about the dead space! It might indeed be foresight - if it's not cooling related
The difference is however incorrect; 18mm versus 21mm is the diameter of the batteries. The height while being upright is 70mm versus the previous 65mm. So a 5mm increase. As far as I understand.
Good point about the dead space! It might indeed be foresight - if it's not cooling related
The difference is however incorrect; 18mm versus 21mm is the diameter of the batteries. The height while being upright is 70mm versus the previous 65mm. So a 5mm increase. As far as I understand.
You are, of course, right on the height. I'm an idiot.
Thanks.
As the diameter of the cells is bigger on the new cells it will mean less cells in a full pack as long as they wont make the pack bigger.
I skimmed through the discussion you linked to. EM says 10-15% improvement in chemistry alone with further improvement to energy density from improved geometry. But I did see anywhere what the two factors, improved chemistry and and improved geometry would total in improved energy density.
You're correct. I thought EM said somewhere one 2170 battery had the double capacity of an (obviously smaller) 18650. I can't seem to find it anymore.
Maybe it only existed in my wishful-thinking-world.
Not having a high bandwidth brain interface clearly has its disadvantages...
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
Glad I resisted buying!
Those who were able to listen in on the conference call report one other interesting tidbit. At one point, Elon Musk is heard to say — albeit indistinctly — that Tesla will transition to the 2170 battery cells for the battery packs in its Model S and Model X cars “by the end of the year,” according to reddit user electricmusk. Tesla’s 2170 lithium ion cells are currently being manufactured at Gigafactory 1 and being used in its commercial and home energy storage systems. The cells will also be used in the upcoming mass market Model 3 sedan.
source: Tesla will raise nearly $1.4B after higher than expected investor demand
Those who were able to listen in on the conference call report one other interesting tidbit. At one point, Elon Musk is heard to say — albeit indistinctly — that Tesla will transition to the 2170 battery cells for the battery packs in its Model S and Model X cars “by the end of the year,” according to reddit user electricmusk. Tesla’s 2170 lithium ion cells are currently being manufactured at Gigafactory 1 and being used in its commercial and home energy storage systems. The cells will also be used in the upcoming mass market Model 3 sedan.
source: Tesla will raise nearly $1.4B after higher than expected investor demand
Even if they make the transition faster - and if they would announce it at the beginning of april - that would be only days after taking delivery of my MX - I wouldn't be too sad. Improvements come all the time, and it might add maybe 20 miles or 30km of range for the same capacity due to the lower weight, but the selling price will probably remain the same.
Actually, that range impact is just an un-educated guess from me. It might be less or more.
Due to the extra space savings, the battery pack might also allow for quicker cooling and better acceleration (if the tires are sticky enough).
Maybe Elon wants to reuse the big MS/MX plarform/chassis, completely filled with the news batteries for the planned vehicles with higher battery capacity requirements than 100kWh.
Or he might reconsider his selfimposed MS/MX 100kWh limit too as a result of demand.
In any case, more exciting times ahead for Tesla and more leaps ahead compared to the traditional car makers.
Some of them might be starting to realise a little bit what's coming. World transition ahead
Actually, that range impact is just an un-educated guess from me. It might be less or more.
Due to the extra space savings, the battery pack might also allow for quicker cooling and better acceleration (if the tires are sticky enough).
Maybe Elon wants to reuse the big MS/MX plarform/chassis, completely filled with the news batteries for the planned vehicles with higher battery capacity requirements than 100kWh.
Or he might reconsider his selfimposed MS/MX 100kWh limit too as a result of demand.
In any case, more exciting times ahead for Tesla and more leaps ahead compared to the traditional car makers.
Some of them might be starting to realise a little bit what's coming. World transition ahead
180 degree turn by Elon Musk. Maybe to stop people postponing their buy, yet it seems contradictory with: "Model 3 isn't the next generation Tesla"...
Might just be because of production scaling limitations, as the article suggests. Anyway a bit sad.
Tesla Model S, X has no plans to use 2170 battery cells, says Musk
Might just be because of production scaling limitations, as the article suggests. Anyway a bit sad.
Tesla Model S, X has no plans to use 2170 battery cells, says Musk
LargeHamCollider
Battery cells != scalable
I've said this several times before but there is nothing really "next-gen" about the 2170s, the form factor has been around for quite a while and any changes to anode/cathode/electrolyte can be stuck in the 18650s. Moving to 2170s is a cost optimization and that is all.
The 18650s, all other things being equal, will have slightly greater power density than the 2170s along with greater pack complexity and cost, which is fitting for a higher end product.
Nobody should think that moving to 2170s itself will result in faster charge times or more power.
I agree that the chemistry and anode/cathode material will likely be the same or very similar, and it's mostly a physical increase in cell size. However, it was my understanding that the 2170 will have greater density than the 18650 (and therefore lighter too) due to less cell packaging. That is, the ratio of (Lithium ion electrolyte) to (cell packaging) is increased with 2170.
