Who wants in on a class action lawsuit? ;-)

[5StarAdvisor]

I've got a 2013 Model S 60 with ~42k on it. Drive normally in LA (traffic, no freezing weather). Original range was 208, now can't get past 165, about 20% down. Repeated visits to Tesla service end up with the same answer: the battery is fine and nothings wrong; essentially, "sit down and shut up." Finally, I wrote a letter to the CTO explaining that if GM's cars had a 20% reduction in their gas tanks in ~40k miles, there would be a recall. That letter did nothing - just another local guy called me to tell me nothing's wrong.

Worse yet, I'm still such a believer that there are at least three people who have bought Teslas thanks to my referrals.

Is anyone else having this problem from normal driving? Am I crazy to think I'm being mistreated?

 

[ACA Man]

I have a Classic 2013 MS60 with 80k miles. I have experienced over 60 parts replaced including major items like suspension, drive unit, and yes the HV Battery. Putting all those issues aside including my settlement I’ve learned that arguing a case about mileage will get you no where expect a lot of Tesla Fan Boys calling you names.

Learn from the Leaf Class Action, keep the argument around battery capacity.

We know from tear downs that Tesla mislead consumers about their usable battery capacity. Tesla knows this and has now changed going forward how they brand their models beginning with the M3 and M3 Long Range and now with the MS and MX, they are no longer a 75 and 100.

Tesla has just replaced my HV Battery and for the very first charge I asked them to fully charge it before picking it up. I wanted to to see a Rated Range Displayed of 208mi not expecting to be able to be able to go that distance within “real world” conditions, but because it would mathematically determine the battery capacity.

If 100% SOC yields 208mi Rated (300Wh/mi) then the 60kWh is supposed to actually be a 62.4kWh Capacity. However based on tear downs by Tesla Hackaer Jason Hughes Tesla’s hacked Battery Management System exposes the real usable capacity of its battery packs
we know this not to be the case. At the least a 100% SOC should project 200mi Rated at minimum.

I found your post because I am contemplating making another claim, this time for fraud and breach of contract. The battery warranty expresses that if replaced the capacity is to be replaced with no less than originally provided. Needless to say my battery replacement at 100 SOC didn’t even display 200mi Rated.

Yes I’d like further range. The batteries have evolved to be lighter, larger, and more efficient and I offered to pay the difference for an upgrade and not only has Tesla said NO they gave me a lesser than original “battery capacity”. The bottom line is technically they can, they have in the past, but they won’t now.

If you have an attorney let me know how to contact them, if you don’t, let me know how to contact you and I’ll have my attorney reach out.

Check your message.

 

[5StarAdvisor]

I have a Classic 2013 MS60 with 80k miles. I have experienced over 60 parts replaced including major items like suspension, drive unit, and yes the HV Battery. Putting all those issues aside including my settlement I’ve learned that arguing a case about mileage will get you no where expect a lot of Tesla Fan Boys calling you names.


Learn from the Leaf Class Action, keep the argument around battery capacity.


We know from tear downs that Tesla mislead consumers about their usable battery capacity. Tesla knows this and has now changed going forward how they brand their models beginning with the M3 and M3 Long Range and now with the MS and MX, they are no longer a 75 and 100.


Tesla has just replaced my HV Battery and for the very first charge I asked them to fully charge it before picking it up. I wanted to to see a Rated Range Displayed of 208mi not expecting to be able to be able to go that distance within “real world” conditions, but because it would mathematically determine the battery capacity.


If 100% SOC yields 208mi Rated (300Wh/mi) then the 60kWh is supposed to actually be a 62.4kWh Capacity. However based on tear downs by Tesla Hackaer Jason Hughes Tesla’s hacked Battery Management System exposes the real usable capacity of its battery packs

we know this not to be the case. At the least a 100% SOC should project 200mi Rated at minimum.


I found your post because I am contemplating making another claim, this time for fraud and breach of contract. The battery warranty expresses that if replaced the capacity is to be replaced with no less than originally provided. Needless to say my battery replacement at 100 SOC didn’t even display 200mi Rated.


Yes I’d like further range. The batteries have evolved to be lighter, larger, and more efficient and I offered to pay the difference for an upgrade and not only has Tesla said NO they gave me a lesser than original “battery capacity”. The bottom line is technically they can, they have in the past, but they won’t now.


If you have an attorney let me know how to contact them, if you don’t, let me know how to contact you and I’ll have my attorney reach out.

 

[MP3Mike]

I found your post because I am contemplating making another claim, this time for fraud and breach of contract. The battery warranty expresses that if replaced the capacity is to be replaced with no less than originally provided. Needless to say my battery replacement at 100 SOC didn’t even display 200mi Rated.

@5StarAdvisor I think you mis-read the warranty. Here is what it currently says:

The warranty replacement may not restore the vehicle to a "like new" condition, but when replacing a Battery, Tesla will ensure that the energy capacity of the replacement Battery is at least equal to that of the original Battery before the failure occurred while taking into consideration other factors, including the age and mileage of the vehicle.

They aren't saying that the replacement battery will be like your failed battery was originally, they are saying that the replacement battery will have at least as much capacity as your failed battery had right before it failed. (So if you had 15% degradation before it failed your replacement battery should have 15% or less.)

 

[5StarAdvisor]

Did I say that my battery had degradation?

Did Tesla test my battery capacity prior to being replaced?

Did I say that my battery failed?

No, No, and No!

The battery had to be replaced because of problems within the battery management system and regen

The point is THE CLASSIC MS60 is NOT a 60.

 

[MP3Mike]

Did I say that my battery had degradation?

Did Tesla test my battery capacity prior to being replaced?

Did I say that my battery failed?

No, No, and No!

The battery had to be replaced because of problems within the battery management system and regen

All batteries have degradation. So it doesn't matter that you didn't say it, we all know it has it.

Yes, Tesla has capacity data from prior to the battery being replaced. They collect a lot of data about your car all the time. (As WK057 has reported he has gotten copies of fleet battery capacity data from a contact at Tesla.)

Yes, you did. The battery management system is part of the battery, and if it is malfunctioning then the battery has failed. (That and Tesla doesn't replace batteries that haven't failed.)

 

[bhzmark]

Did I say that my battery had degradation?

Did Tesla test my battery capacity prior to being replaced?

Did I say that my battery failed?

No, No, and No!

The battery had to be replaced because of problems within the battery management system and regen

The point is THE CLASSIC MS60 is NOT a 60.

some people simply do not have the cognitive resources to understand a technology that they didn't grow up with.

 

[5StarAdvisor]

Why do you think this merits a class action? Outright bold faced lying that the car your selling has 691 hp when it really only has 463 is the kind of issue that merits a class action.

Once you're down 30%, Tesla will replace your battery since you're in California.

When they Outright bold face lye that it’s a 60 when in fact it isn’t merits a class action. (Excluding 2nd gen 60’s with software limitations)

 

[David99]

Life of the battery would be much better if you wouldn't run the battery down so low. I try never to go below 20%. Deep discharge is one of the worst things you can to to your battery. It would be much better to charge whenever possible and top off to 90%.

It is not a 'deep discharge' if you run a Tesla down to 5-20 miles. It is not bad for the battery. There is at least a 5% buffer when the car says 0 miles left. Elon specifically tweeted that running a Tesla down to 0 is not harmful to the battery. Professor Dahn said the same thing.

I run my battery down below 10% on a regular basis and supercharge very much, charge to 100% at least twice a month, sometimes more often and I live in a hot climate. I have driven almost 200k miles and my degradation is 10% which is just where the average is.

The OP has far less miles, far less 100% charges and his degradation is double. Something is wrong with his battery and it's not his fault.

 

[ucmndd]

When they Outright bold face lye that it’s a 60 when in fact it isn’t merits a class action. (Excluding 2nd gen 60’s with software limitations)

I’m a little confused as to what you’re even talking about. BMS hacking has shown the original 60 is actually a 61kwh battery.

What indication do you have that this is a “lye”?

 

[5StarAdvisor]

The “~” sign means “about”.

He didn’t actually tear down the 1st gen 60. The 2nd gen 60 “data is directly from Tesla’s software and not a calculation based on the capacity of cells from a tear down of a pack.” From this he identified that the 2nd gen has 62.4kWh of USABLE Capacity and as he stated the 1st gen has about “~” 58.5kWh of USABLE Capacity.

Now the issue is if the 1st gen “Classic MS60” has No more than 58kWh USABLE capacity then it’s not a 60. It shouldn’t be advertised as a 60 and it shouldn’t be expected to display greater than 195mi RATED Range and the shouldn’t bold face lye and say it has a 208mi RATED range.

To illustrate this point say you bought a ICE and told it had a 20gal tank, you fully fill it and then head off across the desert. Your gauges say you are averaging 20MPG which means you should have a 400mi range but for some reason you wind up stranded out of gas after 300mi. The conclusion is either you have a leak, a faulty gauge, or capacity issue... after intensive tear down and diagnosis it’s discovered your vehicle only has a 15gal tank.

The source of range anxiety is only a symptom of the manufacturer lying about your fuel capacity paired with being blind folded every time you go to fill up because as EV owners the only way to determine this is by:
MILES x WH/MI / 1000 = kWh

 

[ucmndd]

Lol. Good luck with that.

 

[dark cloud]

Now the issue is if the 1st gen “Classic MS60” has No more than 58kWh USABLE capacity then it’s not a 60. It shouldn’t be advertised as a 60 and it shouldn’t be expected to display greater than 195mi RATED Range and the shouldn’t bold face lye and say it has a 208mi RATED range.

So my first car, a Datsun 510 didn't actually have 510 horsepower? I should have sued them before they became Nissan.

 

[vickh]

is this typically affect 1st gen 60 only? I'm looking at a CPO 2015 MS 70..

 

[sorka]

When they Outright bold face lye that it’s a 60 when in fact it isn’t merits a class action. (Excluding 2nd gen 60’s with software limitations)

Since when is the first gen 60 not actually 60? Even the 85 is really only 81 but nobody cares since advertised range is what's important and the advertised range was based on 75.9 kwh of capacity.

 

[5StarAdvisor]

A classic MS85 Advertised 265mi which assumes only needing 79.kWh @ 300Wh/mi Rated AVG, a feasible range and not an issue if the BMS actually has more.

Not the case with the classic MS60 where you need at least 62.4kWh to attain the advertised 208 @ 300Wh/mi Rathed AVG because the BMS actually has less.

In fact the SVC states that the Classic 60 and Early 40 are identical however the 40 was limited by software similar to the 2nd generation 60 which was really a locked 75 (72.6 usable).

The point is the Classic MS60’s had everything over stated. Most of the issues were simply symptoms of Tesla’s typical over promises and lyes. Had they called it a MS55 or claimed it was a 183mi range vehicle would have been more fair but the industry demanded a 200mi+ minimum range vehicle so it was just easier for Tesla to just unlock the 40 and round up the true capacity from 58 to 60 and Wala they had a 200mi car and tricked the EPA to believe so, along with many other consumers.

The bottom line; the Classic 60 either never had 60 or if it did then the replacement battery given to me is in fact actually less than original. The lame thing, they could of replaced it with a software limited 75 locked at 62.4 which has newer tech and apparently cheaper for them because it is in current production.

 

[Merrill]

My 2013 classic 60 with 38,000 miles gets 200 on a range charge almost 6 years later.

 

[ucmndd]

300Wh/mi Rated AVG.

1) the EPA determines the rated range, not Tesla.

2) you seem to have just made up this 300wh/mi “rated average”. Where are you manifesting this number from? Why would it be the same for both the 60 and 85 when the 85 is significantly heavier?

Bottom line, you’re chasing your tail.

 

[MP3Mike]

2) you seem to have just made up this 300wh/mi “rated average”. Where are you manifesting this number from? Why would it be the same for both the 60 and 85 when the 85 is significantly heavier?

Yep, according to @wk057 the correct figure is 295Wh/mi.

And he also says that the original 60kWh pack is actually a ~61kWh pack. Yes it isn't all "usable", but Tesla didn't say you would be able to use it all for propulsion. The remaining ~2.4kWh is being used, to prevent the pack from being damaged...

The only two packs that were "undersized" are the 85 and 90 kWh packs.

 

[bhzmark]

Don't do that. No one does that. That makes no sense. That's the cause of your problem.

Change thread to "Who wants in on lessons to RTFM?"

I talked to a new Model 3 owner and he explained to me how he lets his battery run down during the week and only recharges when it has < 50 miles. He has a charger at home -- right there . . . I don't understand. Unfortunately more product education is necessary.