Why did you cancel your Model 3 reservation?

[Sportstick]

Haven't actually canceled yet, but on the verge, from combination of factors:

• Losing confidence in eventual quality, particulary of body-in-white assembly/integrity, also having watched a YouTube on a recent new Model S owner experience with poor body fits having escaped the plant (after how many years?)
• Delay pushes delivery from Feb/April to December, as we won't be in the delivering location again until next season
• Need something to drive sooner
• Reading more about repair/maintenance costs
• Probable loss of tax incentive

Considering Volvo, maybe new Kia Stinger. No reason to withdraw M3 deposit yet...they can sit on the thousand for a while longer, but don't see this actually happening anymore unless something significant changes. I still think there's an EV in my future next time around, with probably more choices available by then and some more M3 track record established. We're living through the birth of an industry...

 

[ElecFan]

@sports4eva115 enlighten us

 

[206er]

Haven't actually canceled yet, but on the verge, from combination of factors:

• Losing confidence in eventual quality, particulary of body-in-white assembly/integrity, also having watched a YouTube on a recent new Model S owner experience with poor body fits having escaped the plant (after how many years?)
• Delay pushes delivery from Feb/April to December, as we won't be in the delivering location again until next season
• Need something to drive sooner
• Reading more about repair/maintenance costs
• Probable loss of tax incentive

Considering Volvo, maybe new Kia Stinger. No reason to withdraw M3 deposit yet...they can sit on the thousand for a while longer, but don't see this actually happening anymore unless something significant changes. I still think there's an EV in my future next time around, with probably more choices available by then and some more M3 track record established. We're living through the birth of an industry...

+1

I've actually started looking at Volvo too, though not Kia. Any truth to the rumor that heated seating and backup camera's are only premium options on Volvos?

If the tax credit is eliminated prematurely by tax reform, we will not buy a Model 3 and my wife will want a Honda (price+reliability+safety+heated seats). I'd like something else, and Volvos seem appealing from an aesthetic and safety standpoint. But not an option if I have to pay a lot extra for a backup camera and heated seats.

 

[Sportstick]

+1

I've actually started looking at Volvo too, though not Kia. Any truth to the rumor that heated seating and backup camera's are only premium options on Volvos?

I think it varies by model/series. Peruse the website for the different trim levels...it's all there.

 

[sports4eva115]

@sports4eva115 enlighten us

TL;DR - Toyota wants diversity in the sustainable transport field, as a healthy mix of technologies would be the best future. Also, GM's EV1 came out 20+ years ago; the first commercial hydrogen car is ~2 years old.

From Toyota's perspective, all the big guns are diving into the EV space. This means a lot of competitors, which also means lower prices (aka lower margins for Toyota). On top of that, they saw a problem with the big names all investing in the same technologies (batteries, drivetrains, etc). Instead of jumping into the same bucket and everyone else, they decided to target another more sustainable transport space with virtually no competitors, which is hydrogen fuel cell.
Toyota's investment in hydrogen is based on the idea that having only one type of technology is dangerous. For example, if every car company were to eventually switch to producing EV's only, there'll be a massive struggle between companies as they all fight for the same pool of resources. Diversity is key, especially in a field as vast as personal transportation.
To be fair, the biggest problem with ICE cars isn't that it produces greenhouse gases; our livestock are responsible for that too, and you don't see even a fraction of the enthusiasm for a paradigm shift in that sector. The reason why ICE cars are so bad is because almost every single car on the road today is emitting the same biproducts. If every car in the world ran on hydrogen there'll probably be problems too, and EV's aren't really an exception.
Talking to the Toyota team really convinced me that the best future is an investment in a diverse set of technologies. Give Hydrogen a chance, they only really started commercially 2 years ago. EV's have been around for far longer and the first versions definitely weren't without flaws

 

[ElecFan]

+1

I've actually started looking at Volvo too, though not Kia. Any truth to the rumor that heated seating and backup camera's are only premium options on Volvos?

If the tax credit is eliminated prematurely by tax reform, we will not buy a Model 3 and my wife will want a Honda (price+reliability+safety+heated seats). I'd like something else, and Volvos seem appealing from an aesthetic and safety standpoint. But not an option if I have to pay a lot extra for a backup camera and heated seats.

Yeah, Volvo is also an interesting alternative. They are also going on the electrification tour with all of their fleet. It seems that all their models will get some sort of electrification. If their EV's get good reviews, I'll take them into account. M3 remains my favorite though. Don't exactly know why.

 

[Jayc]

Talking to the Toyota team really convinced me that the best future is an investment in a diverse set of technologies.

The problem with that argument is that Toyota should have had an EV right now if they want to talk about diverse technologies. See I'm probably the biggest Toyota fan you will find around here. We have two Toyota hybrids in our household and I spent the last 7 years (2009 - 2016) in Toyota forums discussing everything from their hybrid synergy drive system to future technologies. But it came to the point I realised without a doubt that, they are no longer in touch with modern consumers. The momentum they have built up will carry them through for a few more years but the future is not looking too promising if they carry on the current path.

 

[internalaudit]

^
Batteries are the most expensive component, compared to the engine/ and transmission I totally understand why Toyota is not in a rush because the margins are slimmer if they have to spend a lot more on battery than just deliver a hybrid, PHEV or plain ICEV. Also, advancement in battery technology could mean a shift to another technology from Li-on and Cadmium.

How much is a household really saving by shifting to BEV, $2-3k a year and that can easily be wiped out by repair costs. My Honda's and Toyota haven't had issues with their engines or transmissions, so basically there is really no advantage to BEV except instant torque, that it's cheaper to charge (compared to refueling), drivetrain should (but not always) be more reliable and there are no tailpipe emissions. It's not really rocket science.

The value I see in BEVs and I also read it somewhere is that with them, the top of the line models will not be so remarkedly different performance-wise from the base trim, maybe except for the driving range.

What does it take to convert Toyota's hybrid vehicles to a BEV? Not much more effort I believe.

I would like a Model 3 because it's likely less expensive to maintain than a BMW 4 series (not sure though as long as you skip the dealerships and go for the good indies) and offers 90-95% of the driving dynamics.

 

[MotoEvCA]

Haven't actually canceled yet, but on the verge, from combination of factors:

• Losing confidence in eventual quality, particulary of body-in-white assembly/integrity, also having watched a YouTube on a recent new Model S owner experience with poor body fits having escaped the plant (after how many years?)
• Delay pushes delivery from Feb/April to December, as we won't be in the delivering location again until next season
• Need something to drive sooner
• Reading more about repair/maintenance costs
• Probable loss of tax incentive

Considering Volvo, maybe new Kia Stinger. No reason to withdraw M3 deposit yet...they can sit on the thousand for a while longer, but don't see this actually happening anymore unless something significant changes. I still think there's an EV in my future next time around, with probably more choices available by then and some more M3 track record established. We're living through the birth of an industry...

I think I will still stay with the Model 3 but this story has given me considerable concern. It reminds one that Tesla is still a startup company and does not have the experience / resources for repair that most companies establish by default.

Model X Accident & Repair Process

 

[EinSV]

To be fair, the biggest problem with ICE cars isn't that it produces greenhouse gases; our livestock are responsible for that too, and you don't see even a fraction of the enthusiasm for a paradigm shift in that sector. The reason why ICE cars are so bad is because almost every single car on the road today is emitting the same biproducts. If every car in the world ran on hydrogen there'll probably be problems too, and EV's aren't really an exception.

This information you received from Toyota is inaccurate or at least misleading. The comprehensive climate change report released on Friday by the US EPA squarely points the finger at CO2 emissions as the principal and most immediate concern in terms of protecting against climate change, and ICE vehicles are a major contributor of CO2 emissions. Methane emissions from cattle and other sources are also a significant contributor to global warming but they are not nearly as persistent in the atmosphere as CO2, which is why the most intense focus is on decreasing CO2 emissions to reduce long-term and irreversible effects of greenhouse gas emissions on climate change. And CO2 is a molecule so it doesn't matter what the source is -- his "diversification" argument seems like mumbo-jumbo at least in terms of reducing impacts on climate change.

From the report:

• Global mean atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) concentration has now passed 400 ppm, a level that last occurred about 3 million years ago, when global average temperature and sea level were significantly higher than today (high confidence). Continued growth in CO2emissions over this century and beyond would lead to an atmospheric concentration not experienced in tens of millions of years (medium confidence). The present-day emissions rate of nearly 10 GtC per year suggests that there is no climate analog for this century any time in at least the last 50 million years (medium confidence). (Ch. 4)
  
  
• Warming and associated climate effects from CO2 emissions persist for decades to millennia. In the near-term, changes in climate are determined by past and present greenhouse gas emissions modified by natural variability. Reducing net emissions of CO2 is necessary to limit near-term climate change and long-term warming. Other greenhouse gases (e.g., methane) and black carbon aerosols exert stronger warming effects than CO2 on a per ton basis, but they do not persist as long in the atmosphere (Ch. 2); therefore, mitigation of non-CO2 species contributes substantially to near-term cooling benefits but cannot be relied upon for ultimate stabilization goals. (Very high confidence) (Ch. 14) Climate Science Special Report: Executive Summary

 

[voip-ninja]

I think I will still stay with the Model 3 but this story has given me considerable concern. It reminds one that Tesla is still a startup company and does not have the experience / resources for repair that most companies establish by default.

Model X Accident & Repair Process

A friend in Honolulu had his P100D rear-ended after owning it for less than a month.

It was in the shop for nearly six months getting fixed.

Total damage to the car was only about $3500.

His rental reimbursement bill far outweighed the damage to the car. Virtually any other car would have been fixed in just a few weeks at most.

The only cars I've ever even heard of having such lengthy repair times are actual exotics like Bugatti, Bentley, etc.

 

[internalaudit]

In 94, my Integra was rear ended in Vancouver and it costs more than $2k USD. There was no visible damage as it was on city roads. $3,500 for parts and labor seem to low. Maybe Tesla is low balling repair costs now that insurance cos. are jacking premiums on Teslas.

 

[grashelm]

I haven't cancelled yet, but will if the tax credit goes away.

 

[pkalhan]

This is a tough question for me to answer as I have not decided yet. I was not too bothered by the delay as the website has only pushed my estimated delivery by one month (by the way, I called Tesla a few minutes ago and the rep said take their estimator with a grain of salt). I was more upset about the possibility of the tax credit going away. Please note that I do not need this tax credit to purchase the car, but who would not want to save the $7,500 or get an extra option (long range for me) with that money?

On one of the other forums some people were stating that if a person needed the tax credit to purchase the car then they shouldn’t not be buying it. I really hate that comment as the people who make that statement do not know the situation that other people are in. How many people go grocery shopping and have coupons to save them $.25 on a product? How many people buy the $50 Adidas over the $100 Nikes? Does it mean that they can't afford the higher priced items? Bottom line is, people want to get the best deal possible and keep as much of their money in their bank accounts.

Now, when it comes time for me to configure (March 2018 to May 2018 first production) I may go ahead with it without the tax credit. My wife and I make a good living, heck, I even picked up a part time job for extra cash, we have always been smart with our finances, we worked hard to buy the beautiful house we currently live in. We have never really stopped to smell the roses and really enjoy the fruits of our labor. I can’t remember the last time we even want on a vacation. This Tesla (first production) was supposed to be that for me (and possibly can be). If I don’t get the Long range, PUP, and 19’’ wheels then I feel I may have compromised too much for something I waited so long for.

If I pass on the Tesla all together…then I may go ICE and get a Mercedes AMG, BMW M2, or a Porsche Cayman. I know suggesting an ICE vehicle is sacrilegious on this forum, but again, it will be a car that will put a smile on my face and make me happy. At the end of the day, that is all that really matters. I guess I will see what I do when that moment comes.

 

[hockeythug]

Haven't actually canceled yet, but on the verge, from combination of factors:

• Losing confidence in eventual quality, particulary of body-in-white assembly/integrity, also having watched a YouTube on a recent new Model S owner experience with poor body fits having escaped the plant (after how many years?)
• Delay pushes delivery from Feb/April to December, as we won't be in the delivering location again until next season
• Need something to drive sooner
• Reading more about repair/maintenance costs
• Probable loss of tax incentive

Considering Volvo, maybe new Kia Stinger. No reason to withdraw M3 deposit yet...they can sit on the thousand for a while longer, but don't see this actually happening anymore unless something significant changes. I still think there's an EV in my future next time around, with probably more choices available by then and some more M3 track record established. We're living through the birth of an industry...

Ended up canceling late last week and getting a low mileage 2017 Volvo S90. Was actually a little bit cheaper than the price of a fully loaded Model 3 and I thought I was getting much more value. Already had the Polestar chip upgrade installed as well. I REALLY love the car so far. The interior design and craftsmanship are simply beautiful. I would highly recommend checking one out.

I still will continue to support Tesla. It ended up just not being the right time for me this time. The good news is that Tesla has the guy now who designed the interiors for the S90 and XC90.

 

[ElecFan]

Ended up canceling late last week and getting a low mileage 2017 S90. Was actually a little bit cheaper than the price of a fully loaded Model 3 and I thought I was getting much more value. Already had the Polestar upgrade chip installed as well. I REALLY love the car so far. The interior design and craftsmanship are simply beautiful. I would highly recommend checking one out.

I still will continue to support Tesla. It ended up just not being the right time for me this time. The good news is that Tesla has the guy now who designed the interiors for the S90 and XC90.

I've been thinking about this too. However, the model S is too big for me and I don't need the M3 just yet. I can wait a bit, so will stay with the model 3.

Btw what is the Polestar upgrade chip?

 

[hockeythug]

I've been thinking about this too. However, the model S is too big for me and I don't need the M3 just yet. I can wait a bit, so will stay with the model 3.

Btw what is the Polestar upgrade chip?

I should have said Volvo S90, not a Model S.

 

[N5329K]

"I called Tesla a few minutes ago and the rep said take their estimator with a grain of salt."
Better make that grains.
Robin

 

[sports4eva115]

This information you received from Toyota is inaccurate or at least misleading. The comprehensive climate change report released on Friday by the US EPA squarely points the finger at CO2 emissions as the principal and most immediate concern in terms of protecting against climate change, and ICE vehicles are a major contributor of CO2 emissions.

I agree that reduction of CO2 levels is the number 1 priority. But CO2 itself is not bad, its the fact that there's so many sources producing huge amounts of CO2 a day. Their diversification lies in the argument that there are other solutions to reducing CO2 levels besides EV's, and that includes hydrogen vehicles. You wouldn't be directly contributing to the emissions of CO2 if you drove a Mirai, and isn't that something we should be thankful for?

 

[sports4eva115]

The problem with that argument is that Toyota should have had an EV right now if they want to talk about diverse technologies. See I'm probably the biggest Toyota fan you will find around here. We have two Toyota hybrids in our household and I spent the last 7 years (2009 - 2016) in Toyota forums discussing everything from their hybrid synergy drive system to future technologies. But it came to the point I realised without a doubt that, they are no longer in touch with modern consumers. The momentum they have built up will carry them through for a few more years but the future is not looking too promising if they carry on the current path.

I agree that it's very confusing that Toyota didn't build on the momentum they set up with the Prius and the rest of their hybrid fleet, but at the same time I respect their courage to tackle a technology that's far less developed than those that make up the EV. Hydrogen is still in it's very early stages and who knows, it may fill a niche use that's unclear as of now.