Why I recommend AGAINST buying a Tesla

[TMThree]

Truth be told, cars in that price range are usually not daily drivers, and let's be honest that interior is IMHO is nicer. Having said that, if the base model arriving next year can keep the same interior amenities at the rumored mid-80s starting price, Tesla may need to expedite a refresh.

I daily drove my two 993's back in the day. They also needed a lot of maintenance. It wasn't till Porsche had a Japanese firm go over their manufacturing that Porsche became known for reliability. At any rate, some people really buy into the Porsche marketing, but it's just a brand like any other.

In the US, KTM is a pretty desirable brand too, but my German friend scoffs at it, he thinks they're garbage. He drives Toyota, btw.

 

[Bet TSLA]

If it was the customers' interests they were protecting, they would have replaced the batteries in question under warranty. After all, they have stated themselves that only "a small number" of cars are affected.

Surely you jest! They would have given them all new cars. And a parade. Because we all deserve the best, right?

 

[Geek190]

I really need to stop coming here....

 

[Az_Rael]

Surely you jest! They would have given them all new cars. And a parade. Because we all deserve the best, right?

Well, they could always be forced into a battery recall for this by the NHTSA. Will be interesting to watch how it plays out for sure.

Do you bet TSLA before or after any NHTSA action? Always a gamble I suppose.

 

[Bet TSLA]

Well, they could always be forced into a battery recall for this by the NHTSA. Will be interesting to watch how it plays out for sure.

Never happen. It's not a safety thing, at least not in the way that they interpret for forcing manufacturers to fix things. In fact Tesla was clearly improving safety at the cost of degrading various aspects of performance (charging, range, acceleration, etc.), so NHTSA would likely applaud that.

 

[ahhlun]

If it was the customers' interests they were protecting, they would have replaced the batteries in question under warranty. After all, they have stated themselves that only "a small number" of cars are affected.

Hey I'm with you that I want Tesla to replace/upgrade all batteries as a consumer.
But I also understand they need to protect their interest...

So provided they cannot replace the car batteries due to financial reasons... it is the better option to software limit the battery so it won't break down?

 

[Az_Rael]

Never happen. It's not a safety thing, at least not in the way that they interpret for forcing manufacturers to fix things. In fact Tesla was clearly improving safety at the cost of degrading various aspects of performance (charging, range, acceleration, etc.), so NHTSA would likely applaud that.

Like I said, it will be interesting.

It is kind of like when VW ended up having to buy back those cars after they couldn't provide a remedy that would maintain the performance of the vehicles as sold and still meet emissions requirements. Sure, that wasn't a safety issue, but Tesla might not end up on the right side of this either if they are forced to admit to reducing performance/range/charge speeds for a defect in their BMS design.

 

[SilverGS]

You are from Ontario and drives a 75D, I am surprised you can last 200 miles in one charge :/

Why are you surprised? The cars range is 245 miles (6% degradation after 3 years). On the highway in steady state driving I get 200 miles driving smoothly and staying at 8MPH above the speed limit.

 

[Az_Rael]

So provided they cannot replace the car batteries due to financial reasons... it is the better option to software limit the battery so it won't break down?

Well, it depends on your view of Tesla I suppose. They could be limiting the performance just enough to make the 8 year warranty period and consumers will still be stuck with out of warranty replacements. Or they could be limiting the performance so we will have good batteries for 16 years.

Too bad they won't say which it is.

 

[ahhlun]

Why are you surprised? The cars range is 245 miles (6% degradation after 3 years). On the highway in steady state driving I get 200 miles driving smoothly and staying at 8MPH above the speed limit.

Because I'm a noob, I actually don't have a Tesla yet and is considering a 75D or 90D. That's why I am on this thread as I am concerned.

As for why exactly I am surprised about you getting 200miles for highway, its coz I did a sample routing on ABRP A Better Routeplanner 146 miles get it from 100% to 11% charge. (I set the temp as 32F and with rain, since I live in the PNW)

 

[PWlakewood]

Because I'm a noob, I actually don't have a Tesla yet and is considering a 75D or 90D. That's why I am on this thread as I am concerned.

As for why exactly I am surprised about you getting 200miles for highway, its coz I did a sample routing on ABRP A Better Routeplanner 146 miles get it from 100% to 11% charge. (I set the temp as 32F and with rain, since I live in the PNW)

I have a 75 and I live in the PNW and I get over 200 miles when needed while driving all over the seattle/Tacoma area even with all the hills.

 

[Chaserr]

Like I said, it will be interesting.

It is kind of like when VW ended up having to buy back those cars after they couldn't provide a remedy that would maintain the performance of the vehicles as sold and still meet emissions requirements. Sure, that wasn't a safety issue, but Tesla might not end up on the right side of this either if they are forced to admit to reducing performance/range/charge speeds for a defect in their BMS design.

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The guy you responded to is 100% wrong and Tesla says so themselves. Tesla officially told everyone the downgrades were "a safety thing" in a press release the day they released 2019.16, simultaneously spilling the beans that the update they released in direct response to fires was going to downgrade the BMS and thermal properties, and that it will affect Model X vehicles eventually, not just Model S. That was the infamous "Out of an abundance of caution" press release they put out to make the news stop covering all those parked car fires.

An update released to stop fires is as much a "safety thing" as possible and the reason they are delaying. The fines at this point will be astronomical.

 

[Bet TSLA]

Tesla officially told everyone the downgrades were "a safety thing" in a press release the day they released 2019.16

Exactly. Tesla said they were improving safety, and did so. I can see where this may eventually cause them to be sanctioned for some side-effect (like decreasing range or slowing charging too much), but I can't see NHTSA having any argument with a manufacturer improving the safety of their car. Was it NHTSA that forced Volkswagen to replace all those cars? Surely it's the business of some other agency to deal with that sort of thing, isn't it?

 

[Newscutter]

Shame on you.

Yes, actually, the gas pump is "Ebola," and should be treated as such.

So profoundly sad that you are either unaware of, or just don't care about, these facts:

This is the kind of hysteria I was actually referring to, the caricature those outside the EV community think we all are... but I don't think you caught it.

Fundamentally, you can't own a Tesla or any other vehicle and claim to be an environmentalist... because the most eco-friendly thing you can do is live close enough that you walk to work/shop/school. Absent that, everything else is a fail. Driving a Tesla IS NOT saving the world.

I (and probably you) choose to live where we do, despite the impact we have. Oh, maybe not directly, but the stores are stocked by trucks and staffed by employees who also commute in-- none of which will be universally electric for decades, even under the rosiest Tesla Semi dreamscapes. The products we enjoy are also often not local (because they don't grow oranges or avocados in my state), requiring further pollution to get here. I enjoy traveling internationally, but I don't swim there. Packages are showing up on my door this time of year that I know we not brought on horseback.... I could go on, but few will really self-examine when they're already convinced they have the authority to judge others.

So we DO WHAT WE CAN. I drive electric when I can, but when the circumstances make that difficult or unnecessarily tedious, I will drive my other cars. I'm under no delusions that a handful of trips not taken has any impact. I'm also under no delusions that every Tesla trip absolves me from all the other things I've chosen to do.

 

[Battpower]

because the most eco-friendly thing you can do is live close enough that you walk to work/shop/school.

Which is also not really feasible for EVERYONE.

But I totally support the view that the future of (and hope for) our planet lies more with mass individual actions than with government mandates. Jeez, most goverments are lucky to know what day it is let alone have the understanding and balls to try and enforce climate friendly legislation that will most likely see them kicked out of power by know-it-all Joe & Jill Public.

At least if everyone who can puts climate aware decisions as high up their lists as possible, make it cool to care and make sure they make the very best / most positive use out of everything they consume, then that will be a start.

 

[Chaserr]

I can see where this may eventually cause them to be sanctioned for some side-effect (like decreasing range or slowing charging too much), but I can't see NHTSA having any argument with a manufacturer improving the safety of their car.

They had 5 days to report a potential safety problem to the NHTSA and failed to report. Here we are 7 months later, still unreported. That is why the NHTSA is investigating this. Tesla will be fined hundreds of millions of dollars at the minimum. This is a criminal matter, hiding safety risks from customers is a serious crime with very serious ramifications. A few years ago Honda was fined simply for not reporting a recall they were believed to have known about that wasn't even on one of their own parts, and one they didn't actively try to conceal. Tesla's taking action to conceal a safety problem from the NHTSA escalates this beyond fines - prison is a possibility too! This is exceptionally serious - safety is important and Tesla does not take it seriously. They still haven't addressed any safetyy concerns - and deception is never a legally allowed safety mitigation. There has been no oversight, no safety mitigation, and no repairs. It's all illegal.

If the NHTSA agrees this is safety related like Tesla claims, they will be forced to replace / repair every battery. If they are convinced it is not safety, Tesla will either be forced to uncap the software or replace the hardware under warranty. It's illegal to downgrade even slightly. Not just in safety law, but also in warranty law and property law. They can't steal and they have to repair with "equal or greater" - lesser is illegal. There is no situation imaginable where the caps remain in place and Tesla is allowed to conceal fire hazards from owners.

 

[ucmndd]

They had 5 days to report a potential safety problem to the NHTSA and failed to report. Here we are 7 months later, still unreported. That is why the NHTSA is investigating this. Tesla will be fined hundreds of millions of dollars at the minimum. This is a criminal matter, hiding safety risks from customers is a serious crime with very serious ramifications. A few years ago Honda was fined simply for not reporting a recall they were believed to have known about that wasn't even on one of their own parts, and one they didn't actively try to conceal. Tesla's taking action to conceal a safety problem from the NHTSA escalates this beyond fines - prison is a possibility too! This is exceptionally serious - safety is important and Tesla does not take it seriously. They still haven't addressed any safetyy concerns - and deception is never a legally allowed safety mitigation. There has been no oversight, no safety mitigation, and no repairs. It's all illegal.

If the NHTSA agrees this is safety related like Tesla claims, they will be forced to replace / repair every battery. If they are convinced it is not safety, Tesla will either be forced to uncap the software or replace the hardware under warranty. It's illegal to downgrade even slightly. Not just in safety law, but also in warranty law and property law. They can't steal and they have to repair with "equal or greater" - lesser is illegal. There is no situation imaginable where the caps remain in place and Tesla is allowed to conceal fire hazards from owners.

You speak with the absolution and certainty only present in those that have become singularly obsessed with how they’ve been grievously wronged by another person or entity.

If the eventual outcome of this were even a quarter as cut and dry as you profess, it would have never happened to begin with.

 

[Chaserr]

You speak with the absolution and certainty only present in those that have become singularly obsessed with how they’ve been grievously wronged by another person or entity.

If the eventual outcome of this were even a quarter as cut and dry as you profess, it would have never happened to begin with.

No, I don't. You attack the messenger because you fear the message.

We will be made whole. There is simply not any legal avenue for theft to become sanctioned and the avenue tesla chose to take here is full of admissions of guilt. They can't win, they've simply chosen the most customer-hostile way to lose.

This should never have existed to begin with. Tesla made the mistake of thinking it could break the law and get away with it because software updates could hide a recall. They didn't realize it would be so noticeable or measurable, and by the time they realized the problem they were past the mandatory disclosure period. They attained one of the most recognized corporate bankruptcy firms in the world to represent them on this suit so they know how grave that error was.

There's no reason to try and shout down tesla owners - we will be made whole. That is a good thing - if Tesla somehow got away with this nobody would ever buy another car from them.

 

[ucmndd]

No, I don't. You attack the messenger because you fear the message.

We will be made whole. There is simply not any legal avenue for theft to become sanctioned.

Ok.

Wake me up when Tesla is fined “hundreds of millions of dollars”, they’ve been “forced” to replace every battery, and their executives are in prison.

I’ll buy you a beer.

 

[Chaserr]

I wish it didn't come to that but I'll buy you a beer if you are so tied up in wanting to harm tesla owners that you feel justice is the something to oppose like this.