Winter Driving Experiences

[pbrulott]

PatP, first serious report of sub-standard performance/unusability of the TMS in Winter conditions. From previous posts, the MS seemed to handled winter driving pretty well. Your post is throwing me off with my MPVA signature... I'm currently in QcCity and while it is pretty bad out there, it is not unusual weather around here. I'm pushing the signature of my MPVA up until TM comes back with an official statement on the matter.

PS I would not use my TMS in a snow storm like today's but my 4x4, thanks for testing

Plus, I've read a lot of things on less fundamental issues yet concerning:

- No "snow driving mode" raising the car at speed higher than 5mph and lower traction control action at very low speed
- Major fogging in the rear window
- Side windows fogging and frosting => no side window vent/wrong design
- Frozen charger door that can't open/gets stuck
- Frozen/Door window with ice that don't close properly / without potentially breaking the door/window
- 110V outlet can't keep the charge and pack warm
- SoC dropping badly in cold climate (30 miles a day vs 2 in normal temp)
- Wipers that can't retract
- MPGe double than EPA estimates: 400-450 wh/km (640-700 wh/mi) vs 200 (308)

Need TM to step up here

PB

 

[Jeeps17]

This is the right thing to do. Right now, I'm even thinking about selling the car as winter is long in Quebec. I kept my BMW X1 just in case and that was the best decision I took.

I'll wait as long as possible before altering my reservation plans, but I completely agree with you - winter here is a major part of life, and while no car is perfect, it has to remain functional and safe.

I am willing to overlook many things given the S is such a phenomenal vehicle, but a poorly ventilated / fogged up windshield (or even worse, one that has frozen on the inside - fun times scraping off a concave surface !) and poorly designed / functional windshield wipers are not acceptable to me.

I am going to get so much flak from colleagues who were all waiting to see the S...

Tesla really need to get some engineers on board that focus on winter issues, preferably not ones who never lived in real winter conditions... It's the small details that make a big difference, for example in my Subaru Legacy, the car had defroster resistors under the resting position of the windshield wipers - genial idea, low-cost. Dedicated ventilation for side windows - no-brainer... and not present in the S, from what I am reading.

:crying:

 

[PatP]

Thanks Pat,

I'd be curious to know how it does on a good hill as well, I work at the top of Pine and Peel in Montreal, people ALWAYS get stuck climbing during snowstorms...

See my feedback in the other thread. But it was a really bad experience.

 

[stenkb]

What's weird is that my experience with the Roadster was overall positive. With Model S, we're definitely beta testers....

I completely agreee! My Roadster as well is great on snowy/icy conditions and even when I tried to make it lose traction with TC on, it was nearly impossible. I kinda gave this one to Tesla as I hadn't even considered they could have mucked this part of the design which is so well done in the Roadster. I want to get the S as a year round car (which the Roadster is not) but right now my confidence is shaken.

 

[Jgdixon]

I concur with all the comments about fogging, wipers and winter traction.
Our driveway is only a slight incline and I couldn't get into the garage as I normally would.
I had to back up all the way down and take a run at it. Then nervous about mirror clearance as I slipped around so had to put the driver's mirror in.

 

[Doug_G]

Okay, my experiences with the second major winter storm since I got the car a week ago...

• Conditions, if anything, were worse today. It's a bit colder, so less wet, but there was even more snow! Well above the forecast amount.
• Acceleration from a stop up a modest hill was a bit slow, but once it got going things got better.
• A Nissan Pathfinder 4WD was beside me at one red light, and had no trouble pulling out in front at the green.
• Steering control wasn't quite as good as the previous storm. Got a few wiggles on a very slippery side street. But that might be really bad road conditions - I wasn't accelerating or anything!
• No problem with windshield fogging/frosting. I've been tinkering with the settings...

My current formula for the windshield is:

• Normal cabin temperature (21C)
• A/C compressor on (though there is no way to tell if it's actually active or not)
• Recirculation off
• Air directed to windshield and vents
• Fan moderate - 4 or 5
• Side vent pointed at driver's side window (not all the way over because that closes the vent)

I'm not sure if the above formula would work in more extreme temperatures, but it seemed to be holding its own today.


Also I've taken to plugging my car into 110V at home overnight, so it was still charging (very slowly!) when I left. Pack was nice and toasty with no heating required - really reduces the power consumption and provides full regen braking. I'm topping it up at the office with the 70A charger.

 

[Zas]

Also I've taken to plugging my car into 110V at home overnight, so it was still charging (very slowly!) when I left. Pack was nice and toasty with no heating required - really reduces the power consumption and provides full regen braking. I'm topping it up at the office with the 70A charger.

Doug_G, thats a pretty good idea !... this would also take out any overnight drain / loss of km ... are there any drawbacks in charging this way - besides the obvious extended time it takes ?

 

[Doug_G]

Doug_G, thats a pretty good idea !... this would also take out any overnight drain / loss of km ... are there any drawbacks in charging this way - besides the obvious extended time it takes ?

I believe it was tomsax who ran experiments on the Roadster, showing that charging slowly was less efficient due to the HVAC overhead. Somewhere around 240V 40A was ideal. But he did those tests under warm conditions. It's not like we're cooling the pack under these conditions!

It does work very well in terms of keeping the pack warm. At worst I have slightly limited regen. This morning I had full regen power. And it makes a huge difference to your Wh/km because it doesn't have to use battery power to heat the pack. That helps keep your range up, and actually saves a little on battery cycles.

 

[measton]

I completely agreee! My Roadster as well is great on snowy/icy conditions and even when I tried to make it lose traction with TC on, it was nearly impossible. I kinda gave this one to Tesla as I hadn't even considered they could have mucked this part of the design which is so well done in the Roadster. I want to get the S as a year round car (which the Roadster is not) but right now my confidence is shaken.

I think this has to be a tire issue. I've lived in areas with a lot of snow since age 16. Tires ,weight distribution, clearance, and driving technique are what count. I seriously doubt they "mucked" up traction control.

 

[mknox]

Our driveway is only a slight incline and I couldn't get into the garage as I normally would.
I had to back up all the way down and take a run at it.

Yikes! Is that with 19" All-Seasons, 19" Winter or 21" tires?

 

[Wattson]

For those with delivered cars, can you verify the presence or lack of a defroster vent on the A pillar? It can be seen in the attached photo from the official Design Studio. Upper left corner on the pillar next to the side window.

 

[dsm363]

For those with delivered cars, can you verify the presence or lack of a defroster vent on the A pillar? It can be seen in the attached photo from the official Design Studio. Upper left corner on the pillar next to the side window.

Hmm. My car doesn't have that but it also doesn't have the map lights for the rear seats too. I imagine there will be a number of these tweaks I'll miss out on but did get the car really early in production though.

 

[Jgdixon]

Yikes! Is that with 19" All-Seasons, 19" Winter or 21" tires?

That was with 19" snow tires!

 

[steve841]

For those with delivered cars, can you verify the presence or lack of a defroster vent on the A pillar? It can be seen in the attached photo from the official Design Studio. Upper left corner on the pillar next to the side window.

Oooops ... missing on mine!

 

[mknox]

This am 14*F driver's door could be opened but since window cannot move down at all it just snaps out (ouch!). If you try to close door, the window will smash against chrome strip (not good!). I did not really try to close door since it looked like it could break glass!! No way for glass to sneak under the chrome strip.

This was almost to be expected with the frameless windows Tesla chose to go with. I have found from past experience that frameless windows look nice, but are prone to problems like this and eventually to wind noise when the seals start to age. I wonder why Tesla chose this design?

- - - Updated - - -

For those with delivered cars, can you verify the presence or lack of a defroster vent on the A pillar? It can be seen in the attached photo from the official Design Studio. Upper left corner on the pillar next to the side window.

I don't have my car yet, but I am almost positive that was not there before. I am going to swing by my local Tesla store and see if their test drive and store models have these vents. I wonder if Tesla is paying attention and tweaking the design as we go....

 

[PRJIM]

I concur the Roadster seems to do better in the snow, part of the reason why I have been driving it more as of late.

 

[mknox]

That was with 19" snow tires!

Hmmmm... my AWD Cadillac has been just dandy with regular all-seasons. I guess I'll be looking at winter tires for my S when it arrives (although, with a Spring delivery, I'll have a bit of time to sort that out).

 

[Johan]

So here is a question from another icy and snowy part of the world:
When you're driving on snow/ice with the pack warm and with full regen, and let of the accelerator and hence get full regen (60kW worth) on the rear wheels, how does that feel? In my head I can't really understand that this would be very different from pulling the handbrake (assuming the hand brake only affects the back wheels) partly on any other car. And my experiences with doing hand brake braking on ice and snow is that it's fun but you don't ever do it except on abandoned parkinglots

 

[Doug_G]

Driving through my second major snowstorm since getting the car a week ago, I would have to concur that it does not accelerate nearly as fast as an AWD car. That is not unexpected. It's just that I've gotten rather used to AWD because my last three cars had that (excluding the Roadster, which I rarely drive in the winter).

So far I haven't had any other major complaints about its handling in the snow. For whatever reasons it wasn't handling the conditions today quite as well as last week's storm (because it's colder this time?), but it was still quite acceptable in terms of steering, etc.

Oddly I do think the Roadster's traction control handles these conditions more smoothly. I think the Model S might benefit from a selectable "snow mode" driving profile, especially for the Performance model. It seems to be too aggressive keeping the wheels from spinning when you're starting from a standstill on snow/ice, yet too easily spins the wheels on dry but cold pavement.

- - - Updated - - -

So here is a question from another icy and snowy part of the world:
When you're driving on snow/ice with the pack warm and with full regen, and let of the accelerator and hence get full regen (60kW worth) on the rear wheels, how does that feel?

That actually works very well. If the car starts to understeer (front wheels sliding resulting in larger turn radius than intended), simply backing off the accelerator a little pulls the nose in. It doesn't put any braking load on the already-sliding front wheels, which would make the traction situation even worse, yet slows the car down nicely allowing the fronts to regain traction.

 

[Zas]

So here is a question from another icy and snowy part of the world:
When you're driving on snow/ice with the pack warm and with full regen, and let of the accelerator and hence get full regen (60kW worth) on the rear wheels, how does that feel? In my head I can't really understand that this would be very different from pulling the handbrake (assuming the hand brake only affects the back wheels) partly on any other car. And my experiences with doing hand brake braking on ice and snow is that it's fun but you don't ever do it except on abandoned parkinglots

Its feels just like down-shifting, it feels like a controlled slowdown , not anything dangerous.