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Worst built car ever (my model X)

Discussion in 'Model X' started by BToorani, Oct 10, 2016.

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  1. qadaemon

    qadaemon Member

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    Just my anecdotal experience: I'm sure our lower vin # is in the running for the worst assembled as well. Failed again at a supercharger today, and now it's on a flatbed back to service. However the service center does a fantastic job; no single part has failed twice as they have all been updated revisions. The later vin X's I have experience with are night and day difference with initial quality (panel alignment, squeeks and rattles, et cetera). I'm only without a tesla for a few hours so far as they are out of loaners in my area, and I already miss it.
     
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  2. walla2

    walla2 Member

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    Lemon laws in most states allow repairs up to 30 days in the shop or three attempts. Chrome alignment repair x1 and a few issues repaired once are not going to qualify.

    My X has several issues. All minor annoyances and don't affect the drive. I would suggest hanging in there. They will take care of you and all you have to do is put the annoyances behind you and enjoy the future.
     
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  3. KaiserSoze

    KaiserSoze Member

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    If Tesla can't get the easy things right, like the headliner, turn signals, trim, windshield, door latches, body panels, windows, spoiler, etc. (and that's just my car), unfortunately I don't have much faith that they gave got the hard things right. I can see visual defects, but I have to trust that there are no invisible defects, such as in the drive unit or software. The superficial problems my wife has seen have already scared her away from using Autopilot (a system which has a per mile fatality rate of 13x that of non-AP Teslas). I don't have much confidence in the hidden stuff myself.
     
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  4. aesculus

    aesculus Still Trying to Figure this All Out

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    An interesting stat.
     
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  5. omgwtfbyobbq

    omgwtfbyobbq Member

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    That depends on how long Tesla takes to fix each problem. An owner making separate visits to a service center for each problem could rack up 30 total days pretty quickly, especially if they take the car in on a Thursday or Friday and the service center holds on to it for the weekend (at least 3 days per repair). And if they need to order something.... That's a big time sink.

    My wife's Audi sat a a dealer for I think 12 days while they waited for a new mechatronic thingamajigger, and I think had 4 water pump replacements over another 10+ days in the 30k+ miles she had it. I'm pretty sure we could have gotten that car lemon lawed, but she didn't want to deal with it and just turned it in at the end of the lease. I was still pretty miffed about it, so I sent Audi corporate a demand letter with copies of all the service invoices after she turned in the car, and they were nice enough to send her a check for a couple thousand along with an NDA. Not the best outcome we could have gotten, but better than nothing, especially since you apparently lose a lot of leverage once you turn in a lease (You can't say your decision to turn it in was b/c it was a lemon. That issue needs to be raised prior to turning the car back in.).
     
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  6. hill

    hill Member

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    Very good on Audi -
    Considering the VW debacle and its inference of lack of character, honesty, a nice outcome like that is not the good result I'd expect. In the early 1970's our Vega died the same premature death as ALL Vegas suffered. Just a month past the warranty, and still shy on the miles, the Chevy Dealership gave me a smirk when they said we were out of warranty, and tough luck on us.
    :mad:
    .
     
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  7. bak_phy

    bak_phy Member

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    Well said.
    I once bought a brick that did all the things that a brick was supposed to do at a price that was only a tiny fraction of what a model X with all it's defects costs. Therefore the brick was clearly far superior!!
     
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  8. Mknac

    Mknac Member

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    Maybe you should investigate if your state has a "lemon" law if so many things are wrong with your car.
     
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  9. CUBldr97

    CUBldr97 Member

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    a system which has a per mile fatality rate of 13x that of non-AP Teslas).

    How did you come up with that? 1 million miles plus and one death...compared to what?
     
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  10. KaiserSoze

    KaiserSoze Member

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    120 million AP miles = two fatalities (one in China, one in the US).

    Two billion non-AP miles (likely now closer to three) = three X and and S "traffic" fatalities (dump truck, rear end collision by drunk driver in California, tree collision in the Netherlands). Suicides, car chases excluded. The rear end collision likely could not have been prevented by anything, including AP, but is included for completeness.

    If you assume three billion non-AP miles the ratio goes to 16x.
     
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  11. KaiserSoze

    KaiserSoze Member

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    Actually, I'm mistaken: the number of AP miles has increased to 222 million with no new fatalities reported, at least to my knowledge. That drops the ratio to only 9x more fatalities per mile on Autopilot.
     
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  12. pchilds

    pchilds Member

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    Does anyone honestly believe there have only been 3 model X-S non-AP deaths? With all the totaled model S's out there, there has to be more than 3 deaths.
     
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  13. calisnow

    calisnow Banned

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    There are only a total of about, what - 100,000 Model S's? It's quite likely there are in fact only 3 deaths. In fact there have been a number of car makes/models with zero deaths:

    Study: 9 car models had zero traffic deaths
     
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  14. KaiserSoze

    KaiserSoze Member

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    It's getting a bit off topic here, but perhaps we should start a thread to collect them. Tesla has crash stats for AP vs non-AP, but won't release the raw numbers, and I'm more interested in fatalities than crashes, anyway.

    There was a case where a thief stole an S and killed himself in a high speed chase, and at least two instances of people driving their cars off of cliffs in likely suicides.

    For fatality rates to be equal between AP and non-AP, we would need to find roughly 27 non-AP fatalities.
     
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  15. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    #75 mkjayakumar, Oct 14, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
    I am sorry thats nonsense and I cannot let that kind of bullshit slip without challenging it.

    AP when used exactly in situations where Tesla recommends it and with some bare minimum oversight, is a very effective and very safe driver assistance tool.

    The accident in FL is entirely self-inflicted. I would have never used AP in that road with cross traffic and even then definitely not at that speed. The one on China, yes I sympathize with the victim.

    I have used it now for over 14K miles and I am yet to encounter a single situation that made me think, AP Is any less safe than human driving. Use common sense, AP Is your friend that you cannot live without. Use it like an idiot, Darwin looms over your head. That is true even for driving any car, AP or not.
     
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  16. KaiserSoze

    KaiserSoze Member

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    #76 KaiserSoze, Oct 14, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
    Don't get me wrong: I'm not rendering any opinions about AP safety when "properly" being used. I'm only stating facts about what happens when it is actually being used.

    The context is that I don't see a culture of quality first at Tesla, but rather a culture of "do anything to meet impossible deadlines", with the implication being that AP was rushed and isn't resilient to human misjudgement.

    In fact, it shipped with a known flaw that contributed to two fatalities, and that 8.0's radar first AP is an attempt to correct that specific flaw.

    You can't rush AP to market and then hide behind "it is safe only when used perfectly," when, in fact, it is worse than no-AP when used imperfectly, and the net result is that Tesla drivers die less without it. The entire reason we need AP is that humans can't be perfect (or even close) all the time.
     
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  17. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    #77 mkjayakumar, Oct 14, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
    The entire purpose for AP 1.0 is to reduce stress while driving in highways. And it does that perfectly fine and more.

    Every car lets you drive at 100 mph in all situations even in school zones. So if someone drives at that speeds and kills, why are you not blaming the car that let you do that in the first place. I didn't see you comment, "I am only stating facts on what happens when one actually drives a car, not when it is "properly" used"

    Same thing as AP lets you drive as long as there are two lanes, but that doesn't mean you let AP drive everywhere and be careless.
     
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  18. KaiserSoze

    KaiserSoze Member

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    #78 KaiserSoze, Oct 14, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
    In the past, technology didn't exist to prevent reckless driving in school zones. Nothing could be done about it. You could clamp all cars to 55 mph and that wouldn't eliminate the problem. 55 is still reckless. Even 25 is reckless. Society has to balance freedom and utility against safety all the time. Everything has benefits and costs. With AP, the benefits are "less stress", and possibly "fewer non-fatal accidents" and the costs are "more fatalities", but it didn't have to be that way. AP could have been released later, as would have happened in a quality first culture (where the CEO doesn't have to sleep next to the assembly line), and two more people would be alive today. Was it worth it?
     
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  19. Pollux

    Pollux Active Member

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    Hi, @BToorani,

    Sorry for your pain. Especially since it's also your wife's pain, which reflects back onto you. :-( While I doubt that your vehicle is the worst in the world, and I certainly don't agree that the Model X in general deserves that appellation, I nevertheless understand

    I'm a 2013 Model S P85+ owner, and have been through some issues, and therefore have some appreciation for what you report.

    Ultimately, I have been overjoyed with Tesla's service and with the Model S itself. After three years, my big issue right now is setting up for a trade-in to my next Model S. First, I have to see what surprise(s) are announced on October 17. I mention this so you'll know my own perspective.

    That said, I think you have to make a decision that's best for you and your family. I think it's clear that there are many X owners who have experienced the issues you are experiencing, while there are many others who are driving with carefree ease. I think it comes down to what is going to feel right for you and your family.

    Life is short: if this car is making you so very unhappy, go back to Tesla for a refund. Worst case, use the Lemon Laws. Maybe you'd prefer an S instead. Or maybe you'd just prefer to be done with Tesla and move on to another manufacturer. Don't drag this out. End it. Take the pain off the table. Move on.

    When your emotions cool, I hope that you will be able to keep in mind that Tesla is doing something very hard: create an entirely new car manufacturing company for the purpose of electrifying transportation. You did something bold and praiseworthy: you took a chance on a new car line from a new manufacturer, and you likely did so at least in part to accelerate the transition to electrified transportation. You are an early adopter, and unfortunately some early adopters are going to take arrows, and some will take even more than others. It's sad that this adventure isn't working out for you. :-(

    Best of luck to you,
    Alan
     
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  20. calisnow

    calisnow Banned

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    #80 calisnow, Oct 14, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
    What flaw was that - or do you mean limitation? Secondly I need autopilot for its convenience even if it is not as good a driver as I am - and I am perfectly happy to accept some level of increased risk of death in return for the convenience. We make these trade-offs all day long and your personal line in the sand is arbitrary. Increased utility is absolutely worth some increased loss of life - our actions prove this. We allow stupidly powerful sports cars on public roads. We allow young men age 16 with undeveloped brains and poor judgment to pilot said stupidly powerful sports cars. We don't mandate that every single person puff into a breathalyzer before starting a car - thus increasing the risk that a drunk person will kill someone else on the road. We allow people to eat cheeseburgers every day until they have heart attacks and put the lives of emergency medical personnel at risk by making them go on ambulance rides on public roads when they could have been sitting back at the station safe if it were not for the cheeseburger-eating-glutton's lack of self control.

    The examples go on and on and on. Tesla autopilot simply makes for more dramatic copy in the press and so it's getting lots of scrutiny. Get over it.

    Yes, it was absolutely worth it. I might be the next person to die due to another flaw in the system we have not yet detected - and I'm fine with that. Fortunately for me your personal risk tolerance is less in line with Elon Musk's than mine is.

    Also, WRT Monday morning quarterbacking (which is what you are engaged in) you actually don't know what would have happened if AP was released later. You don't know if the lack of AP would have negatively affected Tesla sales - perhaps increasing quarterly losses, reducing investor confidence further, inhibiting Tesla's ability to tap capital markets again, preventing them from achieving the scale they need to become profitable and finally change the world.

    You don't know this because you don't have access to an alternate universe in which Elon Musk executed and made decisions the way KaiserSoze would like him to.

    Until then I'm calling you out for what you are - somebody blowing hot air about how he supposedly would have called the decision making in one of the most challenging corporate tasks in history - breaking into the automobile industry (if he were in place to call the decisions and were not just some hobbyist arguing on the internet with other people like me).

    Long live risk tolerance. Long live freedom. Long live America.
     
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