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Would you consider a Bolt?

Would you consider a Chevrolet Bolt EV over a Model 3?

  • Definitely yes

    Votes: 27 8.1%
  • Definitely no

    Votes: 250 75.1%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 56 16.8%

  • Total voters
    333
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Good morning! :)

The Bolt can't charge at 100 kW at "100 kW" stations. It might do 70 kW. But it doesn't matter, since almost all of them in northern CA are 24 kW and the rest are only 50 kW when they actually work and are not busy.
Today's CCS stations were installed to support today's 75-100 mile CCS cars. Some will be upgraded and lots of new ones will be installed. New ones along highway routes will largely support 50 kW and greater now that cars will exist that are capable of charging at those rates.

Tesla owners are worried about Supercharger congestion with 8-16 plugs available and 100-135 kW charging rates. How exactly will the Bolt work out any level of increased adoption with single or even double 24 kW and 50 kW plugs? Oh, right, it won't. Further, the cost of driving on the NRG eVGo network makes gasoline look cheap
Lots of CCS stations will be installed to support the coming longer-range cars from a variety of car makers.

The $4.95 per session charge or the monthly charge both present awful dilemmas.
I expect the non-subscription per-session pricing for occasional road-trip charging will be competitive with pre-paid Supercharger access. Tesla has been ambiguous about the pricing model for Supercharging for the Model 3. I think it was about $2,500 pre-paid for S60 owners. I think it is unlikely to be "free" like it is with an $80k+ Model S. I expect either an S60 like option fee or some form of pay-as-you-charge scheme for Model 3 owners.

Again, are you assured that the Bolt ships with what is necessary to charge at over 200A? Matter of fact, we don't even know if the Bolt will charge even at 200A if you can find one of the few stations that can charge that fast.
GM hasn't provided full details about charging capability yet. All we know is that it supports at least 50 kW, adds 90 miles in 30 minutes or 160 miles in 60 minutes. Those rates tend to imply support for at least 150A since the Bolt EV's average pack voltage is 350V. An engineer was quoted as saying the final supported peak charging rate was still being decided at the time of the last round of Bolt EV PR. I doubt that they will announce support for over the 200A rate that is the official max current in the existing CCS specification, at least for the 2017 Bolt EV model year.

At 70 mph, the Leaf has 98% battery roundtrip efficiency. How is GM going to improve on that? At 250 pounds heavier and worse aerodynamics, the Bolt is guaranteed to have terrible efficiency at highway speeds.
I'm guessing the Bolt EV will have better highway efficiency than the S60 which was 97 MPGe. The LEAF is about 102 MPGe highway. I expect the Bolt EV to be about the same highway efficiency as the LEAF.

The LEAF's battery roundtrip efficiency is mostly irrelevant to highway efficiency. The real opportunities for improved powertrain efficiency will come from the motor inverter, motor and final reduction gears. There are still significant opportunities there but the LEAF is already pretty good. The Bolt's motor efficiency looks good in the SAE paper they published in April but we will have to see how all the various elements add up together in the final overall efficiency specs.

The Model S: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/fact2014teslamodels.pdf
Hits 97% battery roundtrip efficiency, 91% on board charger efficiency for a pretty good overall trip efficiency of 89%. The overall trip efficiency beats the Leaf, the i3, and the Ford Focus EV at 70 mph.

The Chevy Spark EV on the other hand:
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/fact2015chevroletspark.pdf

Wow, just terrible. Only 95% battery roundtrip efficiency and 83% on board charger efficiency for an overall trip efficiency of just 79%. Since it is so small, the overall CDa lets the Spark still hit a low Wh/mi at 70 mph, but the Bolt has a bigger CDa than a Leaf. Therefore the Bolt needs to have a far better power electronics and motor setup than the Spark EV if they hope to even get close to the efficiency of the Leaf.
Battery charging efficiency is important in general but is not really relevant to road-trip usability. The Spark EVs AC charger is less efficient largely because it was limited to 16A whereas the Model
S supports 40A. Faster charging rates mean less time spent on fixed overhead energy consumption. Tesla cars are noticeably more efficient charging at 32 or 40 amps than at 16. The Bolt EV has a new AC charger design that supports 32A. Even the new 16A charger in the 2016 Volt is quite a bit more efficient (~90%) than the old design that the Spark EV and older Volt likely shared. In any case, built-in AC charger efficiency is irrelevant to the external DC charger HW used during road trips.

Now, the Model S was initially sold in 2012 and 2013 without all those pieces in place, but there was certainly the promise that it would eventually be there for the vehicles sold. And it was for many. Even with the Model 3 launch, there will be plenty of places where the criteria isn't met. But the rapid growth of the Supercharger network means there are fewer and fewer places where that's true.

The Bolt, on the other hand, does not meet any of that criteria. The long distance range isn't there. The charging network would have to be spaced around 100 miles apart and the charging speed isn't there. The realistic cadence for a Bolt is then 1.5 hours of driving, 55-120 minutes of charging
I think you are overstating your case.

There will be lots more CCS charging installed in the next few years. New interstate CCS chargers capable of supporting 40-70 kW or faster charging will predominate along highways. Plenty of slower CCS stations will also exist but mostly in metro areas and would usually be skipped over during road trips.

Occasional road trips of a few hundred miles a day should be entirely possible in a Bolt EV if 50+ kW charging stations are available along the route. A trip in an S90 or Model 3 with the larger pack option would be more convenient. A future S120 or Model 3 pack equivalent would be yet more convenient. Sometime in the next decade there may be an S150 charging at 700-800V instead of 350-400V and that will be even more convenient for frequent long-distance travel. I think it is a continuum rather than the stark binary yes/no you seem to see.

One of the additional problems for CCS is trying to choose the spacing. Since Tesla is designing all of their vehicles to hit about 200 miles of highway range, they can space the network accordingly (120-140 miles apart for 80% of the battery). CCS on the other hand has to cater to low range vehicles and potentially a raft of different sized batteries and therefore different highway ranges. So can we expect 10-20 plug CCS stations at 100 miles apart? Well, that's not the right spacing for a BMW i3 33 kWh nor an Audi Q6 e-tron. Likely, they will have to put them at a variety of shorter distances apart... which is great when they are all built out, but the cost of doing so... wow, to achieve the same utility as a the Supercharger network, they'd have to spend about 5-10x for the same geographical region.
Shorter range cars like the 114 mile (EPA combined city/highway) i3 33 kWh model you cite above are not going to be the primary customers of interstate CCS charging infrastructure. The Bolt EV will have almost twice that range as will other future CCS cars that people will primarily use for longer distance driving. While there may be some 24 kW stations mixed in along the way, the primary highway infrastructure is likely to loosely mimic Tesla's Supercharger layout for distance between the faster CCS chargers.

Autopilot is a HUGE advantage in addition to over-the air software updates and the big screen, and likely it will be even closer to fully autonomous; Autosteer was the reason I spent 6x as much on my Tesla vs my prior car
Most people aren't quite that obsessed to pay 6x to get AutoPilot. Fortunately, it and systems like it will be much cheaper in the next few years. Automated driving features won't be generally available in 2017 on the Bolt EV or the Model 3. GM is apparently planning to introduce automated driving features in some Bolt EVs used by Lyft drivers next year as an experiment. The 2018 Cadillac CT6 is supposed to have Autopilot-like capabilities (delayed a year from the rumored original plan) and this may well show up in future model year Bolt EVs.

The S and X are both record acceleration for their class & the Model 3 will likely be the same, better than any other car for its price range (i.e. likely the base will be quicker than cars under $40k.
If you are talking about BEVs this is probably true. If you include ICE cars then not so much. For example, the Ford Focus RS can do 0-60 mph in about 4.7 seconds and has a max speed of 165 mph for under $37,000. Similar ICE cars from Subaru and others also exist in that price and performance range.

The significantly better looking design will appeal to a larger audience, and it will likely be much higher range on a smaller/cheaper battery due to record aerodynamics for a mass produced car with a target of .21 coefficient of drag
Yet, strangely, the vast majority of cars purchased and on the road look more like a Bolt than a Model 3 or other sporty Euro-styled sedan.

While some argue the 3 will cost more for features people want, the base model 3 will still be better than a base bolt and at least people HAVE the options for bigger battery, performance, autopilot, supercharging that are not even available on a Bolt
Nobody outside of Tesla and GM know the base trim equipment vs options on the Bolt EV and Model 3. It's too soon to make that comparison.

In addition, misguided Bolt lovers like Jeff N (likely a GM exec) argue Bolts can be negotiated down in price at a dealer but from what I hear GM dealers charged 10k+ over MSRP for Volts outside of CARB credit states IF they even offered to sell them
LOL. No, I'm not a car exec and I don't work for GM. I own a Volt but that was my first GM car. Prior to that I have owned 3 Toyotas, a Honda Accord, and a small Ford pickup.

I bought my 2011 Volt in December, 2010 for MSRP through an ordinary local Chevy dealer in the SF Bay Area. Of course, dealers in low-volume areas of the country may attempt to extract higher profit margins but nobody is obliged to pay them. Anyone can buy a car for a reasonable price and minimal sales hassle using the Consumers Union or Costco car buying services. Anyone can buy a car from a high-volume deep-discount dealer in California and have it shipped for a few hundred dollars out-of-state. Or just price a car that way and tell a local dealer to match the price or else. It's not hard.
 
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Would I consider a Bolt? Well, if that were the question, I'd say no, because of the lack of charging infrastructure. That, and what there is in infrastructure is inferior to the Tesla. But, that's not what the poll asks. It asks "Would you consider a Chevrolet Bolt EV over a Model 3?"

By that metric, my answer is "F NO!"
 
Comparing a gas car with similar upfront price to an EV also requires factoring in fuel and running costs if you want to compare "cost".

We're looking to save $2000 per year in fuel costs in our Tesla vs the SUV it replaced. Both at >350HP cars, but the performance of the Tesla blew away the Mercedes SUV, as HP does not tell the tale.

Try finding anyone who can launch a gas car at a light with anywhere near the performance and accuracy as an EV owner does with a swift kick on the accelerator pedal vs raising revs and trying to get the clutch deployment just right, etc.

I'll get a consistent and reproducible launch in my Tesla vs my buddies new Vette any day.
 
I'm guessing the Bolt EV will have better highway efficiency than the S60 which was 97 MPGe. The LEAF is about 102 MPGe highway. I expect the Bolt EV to be about the same highway efficiency as the LEAF.

No, it won't. The EPA highway test has an average speed of 48.3 mph:
Detailed Test Information

Using the EPA ratings is very misleading when talking about hitting range at realistic highway speeds:
Compare Side-by-Side

EPA highway, S85: 90 S60: 97 Leaf 30: 101 i3: 111

Looking at this data, you might assume that the Model S has lower efficiency at highway speeds. But that's not the case. Look at the Idaho National Laboratory testing: Library - Alphabetical | Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity

Model S: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/fact2014teslamodels.pdf
i3: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/fact2014bmwi3ev.pdf
Leaf: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/fact2011nissanleaf.pdf

@ steady 70 mph, in Wh/mi in DC energy:
S85: 301 Wh/mi
i3: 313 Wh/mi
Leaf: 343 Wh/mi

The Model S85 with 90 MPGe rating is actually the most efficient at 70 mph, more efficient than the highest highway MPGe leader, the i3. It is almost 14% more efficient than the Leaf. Since this is the least efficient Model S, it is safe to say that every Model S variant is more efficient than every i3 variant at a steady 70+ mph, which is the primary use case for highway driving in the U.S. It is likely that they are about the same at 65 mph and the Model S is vastly more efficient at 75 mph.

Matter of fact, the Model S 85 was more efficient at a steady 45 and 60 mph than the Leaf. The EPA testing stresses way too much acceleration/deceleration in it testing cycle schedule in order to understand highway cruising efficiency. (The i3's 45 mph and 60 mph test results have to be discounted because of ambient temperature, the i3 ReX's numbers were around 5% better than the Model S 85 at 45 mph and 4% better at 60 mph, losing at 70 mph).

Aerodynamics is extraordinarily important to achieve highway range.

Given that the Model S85 beats the i3 at 70 mph, are you saying that GM is going to be able to make up the poor aerodynamics of the Bolt with powertrain efficiency improvements over both the i3 and the Leaf? Given the high efficiency of electric drivetrains anyways, there is likely little to be gained there in comparison to aerodynamics.
 
I'm guessing the Bolt EV will have better highway efficiency than the S60 which was 97 MPGe. The LEAF is about 102 MPGe highway. I expect the Bolt EV to be about the same highway efficiency as the LEAF.

No, it won't. The EPA highway test has an average speed of 48.3 mph:
You got me. I meant to say "I'm guessing the Bolt EV will have better EPA highway efficiency".

As you noted, the EPA's efficiency tests are not equivalent to steady state 70 mph efficiency.
 
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Good morning! :)
Today's CCS stations were installed to support today's 75-100 mile CCS cars. Some will be upgraded and lots of new ones will be installed. New ones along highway routes will largely support 50 kW and greater now that cars will exist that are capable of charging at those rates.

Lots of CCS stations will be installed to support the coming longer-range cars from a variety of car makers.

You keep saying that lots of higher power CCS stations will be built. By whom? When I look at Plugshare, I see CCS chargers only in major metro areas, even along the east & west coasts. Since GM has said they're not going to do anything to build out infrastructure (read chargers), that just doesn't seem like much of a commitment on their part. You're in CA which has pretty good coverage, but if that's the only place long distance travel is viable--traveling in MN on CCS chargers isn't possible outside the Twin Cities Metro area, and even the chargers in the metro area are CHAdeMO/CCS units made possible by Nissan--then that just seems like GM is only trying to make another compliance car.
 
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I would agree with you if you had said 100 miles. Many people are in a situation where they need an urban commuter as a 2nd car, but their daily drive is less than 40 miles. Chevy has the data to back this up.

Which is why their choice of not supporting infrastructure is so perplexing. Why offer the Bolt with 200 miles, when the average commuter doesn't require it, and then provide no support for the infrastructure necessary to go any further? Makes no sense. It wouldn't even be that large of an investment...

I think most people simply aren't satisfied with a range of 100 miles, but are with 200 miles.

I don't fault GM or Nissan for not getting involved in infrastructure. While the Supercharger network is a great facility, I don't need it - public charging stations are popping up everywhere (and much faster than the SC network is expanding).
 
I'll be investigating the Bolt as soon as its in a showroom near me. I have a Volt and a Model S now. I love the Tesla but there are some things I don't like about it, so I'm open to an alternative. I thought I'd be more excited about the SC network than it turns out I am. I've only taken 3 road trips since 2013, and having to stop at certain places, subject to them being up and running, is more of a disadvantage than I'd hoped. Autopilot is a big disappointment. The Bolt has to have traffic aware cruise or it won't be considered. And if it has SiriusXM without 5k in "upgrades" necessary that will be a big incentive for me.
 
I think most people simply aren't satisfied with a range of 100 miles, but are with 200 miles.

I don't fault GM or Nissan for not getting involved in infrastructure. While the Supercharger network is a great facility, I don't need it - public charging stations are popping up everywhere (and much faster than the SC network is expanding).

Nissan is involved in infrastructure. The CCS network is incomparable to the SC network, and saying that the "expansion" of CCS is happening faster is incorrect.

Placing random singular CCS stations, that are owned by different companies and use different payment cards, isn't the same as an organized SC network. It just isn't.
 
You keep saying that lots of higher power CCS stations will be built. By whom? When I look at Plugshare, I see CCS chargers only in major metro areas, even along the east & west coasts. Since GM has said they're not going to do anything to build out infrastructure (read chargers), that just doesn't seem like much of a commitment on their part. You're in CA which has pretty good coverage, but if that's the only place long distance travel is viable--traveling in MN on CCS chargers isn't possible outside the Twin Cities Metro area, and even the chargers in the metro area are CHAdeMO/CCS units made possible by Nissan--then that just seems like GM is only trying to make another compliance car.
I expect it to be chaotic. Some states like CA, Oregon, and Washington will fund and coordinate installations. In other areas it may be mostly private business. Some car makers (other than GM) may fund some installs. It doesn't really matter who puts them in or why as long as they are there. I expect the east and west coasts to fill in further first and then slowly spread out from other urban areas in the middle states. That means road trips may not be viable in many areas (where few EVs are sold anyway today) but will be viable where 50% - 70% of plugins are sold now.
 
Placing random singular CCS stations, that are owned by different companies and use different payment cards, isn't the same as an organized SC network. It just isn't.
True. But, for what it's worth, some of the bigger charger names (ChargePoint, EVgo, etc.) are working together on a billing interop system so any of their cards work on any of the member chargers. Ultimately, I think we'll see credit card readers like at gas pumps as well.

ROEV Association
 
Lots of CCS stations will be installed to support the coming longer-range cars from a variety of car makers.

There will be lots more CCS charging installed in the next few years. New interstate CCS chargers capable of supporting 40-70 kW or faster charging will predominate along highways.

Sure, there a lot of money has been wasted on CCS v1 and will continue to be wasted on CCS v1. It's one thing to let BMW/GM/VAG waste their own money on CCS v1, but it's another to use taxpayer money to waste money on CCS v1.

Now, if CCS v2 turns out to be a realistic SAE Level 3 DC charging standard, then great... we can finally start to really build out a common DC fast charging standard in the U.S. But there are major barriers to that happening. Even the proposed CCS v2 standard with a liquid cooled 350A plug is slower than the existing Superchargers, which we know support at least 370A.

First, there are no cars. Without cars, there's no incentive for any automaker or charging network to spend the money up front to install higher power EVSE's. And with no higher power EVSE's there's not as much incentive for an automaker to offer vehicles that can charge at the newer standards. Classic chicken and egg problem - and Tesla chose to just solve both ends.

You can see this with existing DCFC deployments. The current limit of the CCS v1 standard is 200 amps. Just how many 200 amp EVSE's are installed and ready to accept public charging? It might not even be more than a dozen per continent. The biggest charging networks in the U.S., ChargePoint and EVgo do not install 200 A. Given the track record where both automakers and charging networks do not install ahead of the existing fleet of vehicles, why would one expect that CCS will have a reasonable network of installations anytime within the typical lease period of a Bolt?

Since the Bolt fails a long distance BEV, the next one up that might possibly drive CCS v2 adoption is the Audi Q6 e-tron. With a 92-95 kWh battery pack, we would obviously expect that it must ship with something better than 50 kW charging. But that's a 2019 model to be offered in "early 2018" at probably over $100,000. Just what kind of sales level can one expect from a 4 seat, $100,000+ CUV from Audi, the "untruth in engineering" company? Now take that to CCS v1 200A or CCS v2 adoption. It may very well be well into 2020 before CCS v2 adoption is where Tesla's Supercharger network was at the end of 2014.

So then... the Bolt needs 200A CCS installed at 100 mile distances apart. Given a chaotic install and the driving force for CCS adoption is either 20-35 kWh CCS vehicles or 90-95 kWh vehicles, is the Bolt going to get a CCS network that it can really use? With one or two plugs available at each location, a Bolt owner likely has to grab a charge at every 50 mile stop just in case. That's driving 45 minutes, charge for 15-20 minutes. Yes, some die hards will drive around in 45 minute increments and declare that electric driving has arrived. No, the masses won't stand for that. Nor can they, since there's 1 plug. Maybe 2.
 
No, it won't. The EPA highway test has an average speed of 48.3 mph:
Detailed Test Information

Using the EPA ratings is very misleading when talking about hitting range at realistic highway speeds:
Compare Side-by-Side

EPA highway, S85: 90 S60: 97 Leaf 30: 101 i3: 111

Looking at this data, you might assume that the Model S has lower efficiency at highway speeds. But that's not the case. Look at the Idaho National Laboratory testing: Library - Alphabetical | Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity

Model S: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/fact2014teslamodels.pdf
i3: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/fact2014bmwi3ev.pdf
Leaf: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/fact2011nissanleaf.pdf

@ steady 70 mph, in Wh/mi in DC energy:
S85: 301 Wh/mi
i3: 313 Wh/mi
Leaf: 343 Wh/mi

The Model S85 with 90 MPGe rating is actually the most efficient at 70 mph, more efficient than the highest highway MPGe leader, the i3. It is almost 14% more efficient than the Leaf. Since this is the least efficient Model S, it is safe to say that every Model S variant is more efficient than every i3 variant at a steady 70+ mph, which is the primary use case for highway driving in the U.S. It is likely that they are about the same at 65 mph and the Model S is vastly more efficient at 75 mph.

Matter of fact, the Model S 85 was more efficient at a steady 45 and 60 mph than the Leaf. The EPA testing stresses way too much acceleration/deceleration in it testing cycle schedule in order to understand highway cruising efficiency. (The i3's 45 mph and 60 mph test results have to be discounted because of ambient temperature, the i3 ReX's numbers were around 5% better than the Model S 85 at 45 mph and 4% better at 60 mph, losing at 70 mph).

Aerodynamics is extraordinarily important to achieve highway range.

Given that the Model S85 beats the i3 at 70 mph, are you saying that GM is going to be able to make up the poor aerodynamics of the Bolt with powertrain efficiency improvements over both the i3 and the Leaf? Given the high efficiency of electric drivetrains anyways, there is likely little to be gained there in comparison to aerodynamics.

This is what I would have written if I wasn't too lazy to take the time. Failing to appreciate that aero dominates at highway speeds is going to lead to disappointment for Bolt buyers who don't realize that they will massively underperform EPA highway figures at 75mph.

Bolt cdA =~8ft^2 M3 cdA =~5ft^2. <= that is why I'm no longer considering a Bolt.
 
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O.K., so you are Audi and you release your $100K Q6 EV. How do you sell it? When Audi and Mercedes approved their EV's, didn't they also approve a charging strategy?

The Bolt is different. It will likely sell in the modest quantities GM projects without extensive charging.
 
This is what I would have written if I wasn't too lazy to take the time. Failing to appreciate that aero dominates at highway speeds is going to lead to disappointment for Bolt buyers who don't realize that they will massively underperform EPA highway figures at 75mph.

Bolt cdA =~8ft^2 M3 cdA =~5ft^2. <= that is why I'm no longer considering a Bolt.
Your point is well taken, but the fail will not be as large as you imply for two reasons:
  1. One of the EPA tests is higher speed (albeit diluted by the other tests.)
  2. The EPA fudges down the highway result, by ~ 20% IIRC
Test Schedules

So I agree that the ☰ will easily outperform the Bolt range at 70+ mph travel speeds, but I expect the Bolt to come close to 200 mile range on nice weather days. Since a 200 mile EPA range is shaving it close when it comes to long trips and SC hopping, the low Cd is important.
 
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