TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

110v vrs 220v charging

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by White Knight, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. TheRFMan

    TheRFMan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    240V is better, especially in cold weather. Electricity is used to keep the battery worm during charging, and that's not power that's going into the battery. The faster you can complete the charge, the less time the car needs to keep itself warm while charging.

    Also, on 240V, the car should be able to pre-heat the cabin without depleting the battery (the charger can top off the battery as fast as the heater can drain it). That's not possible at 120V.
     
    • Like x 1
  2. PACEMD

    PACEMD Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2019
    Messages:
    963
    Location:
    Billings, MT
    I don't get it. Why do I have to use electricity to keep the battery worm? What does that worm do anyway, anything like a sandworm?
     
    • Funny x 6
  3. ucmndd

    ucmndd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2016
    Messages:
    5,373
    Location:
    California
    The worm carries the energy to each individual cell, obviously.
     
    • Funny x 2
    • Like x 1
  4. PACEMD

    PACEMD Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2019
    Messages:
    963
    Location:
    Billings, MT
    Oh, OK. That makes sense..........
     
  5. valaeyron

    valaeyron Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2020
    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Virginia
    it’s a gummy worm, Haribo makes them for Elon. Their worms perform better when warm. The new “efficiency package” is just a newer worm with 5% more sugar content, so it’s more “energetic” at hauling those electrons around... #fact
     
    • Like x 1
  6. TheRFMan

    TheRFMan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    LOL, I should not type posts on my phone. Autocorrect got me :).
     
    • Like x 1
    • Funny x 1
  7. byeLT4

    byeLT4 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Messages:
    544
    Location:
    Texas
    The BMS worm... I picture a little dude with a clipboard and a voltmeter roaming around checking individual cell voltages haha!
     
  8. Aphinity

    Aphinity Hydro power is best!

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2020
    Messages:
    106
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC Canada
    I think the bigger problem with battery health and life is how long you leave it undercharged or overcharged. Speed of at-home L2 charging (meaning AC charging of ANY of the two voltages) is not relevant to the life of the battery. Merely how quickly it reaches your desired state of charge.

    Efficiency of 240V is just inherently better. Here's my best attempt at a really simple explanation as to why:

    Take a 120V line with a 50 amp breaker, and a 240V line with a 50 amp breaker. A model 3 can pull a maximum of 32 amps from any AC source using the mobile connector IIRC.

    Given the same amount of KW needed, you'll need to pull 32 amps for twice as long on the 120V line. Every wire has inherent losses involved (albeit very minimal). Those (very minimal) losses will be roughly double on a 120V system. Over time, that will add up to something, although probably not a lot.

    It's true, there may be slight differences elsewhere, but theoretically, you're losing half as much with 240V vs 120V. And it charges faster - in my experience, more than twice as fast due to some kind of difference in the car charging circuitry itself. I have no idea why though, and I may be mistaken, but it's my impression.
     
  9. Oldmanelectron

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2020
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Indiana
    I(2)R
     
    • Like x 1
  10. smartypnz

    smartypnz Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,770
    Location:
    Monterey Peninsula
    All kidding aside, during charging, a certain amount of power is used for housekeeping. That use doesn't increase if you change from 120 to 240. So, with 240 there is substantially more power left over for charging.
     
  11. ChadS

    ChadS Last tank of gas: March 2009

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    3,246
    Location:
    Redmond, WA
    I agree with most of what's been posted here, so I'm only going to add some small details. There have been two main questions, about how wear on the battery and efficiency at different charge rates/voltages.

    I spend very little time looking at battery health issues, but I seem to recall most explanations of battery wear from charging saying that the problem isn't really the speed of charging itself - it is the heat that typically comes from fast charging. In fact, I saw it suggested (though I don't recall seeing any data to back it up) that higher speed charging may be better than lower speed in some cases, because - even though it creates more heat - the heat isn't around as long. Of course this will vary widely based on your cooling system too. In any event, at L1 and L2 speeds, I agree it isn't very likely to make a measurable difference on the health of your battery. Heck, from some Model S battery surveys tomsax did a few years ago, it didn't seem that even frequent Supercharging made any notable difference in battery health.

    Several years ago tomsax also did some charging efficiency tests on his Roadster. Obviously that had a different battery (and BMS and cooling system), but he found, as expected, that 240V charging was definitely more efficient than 120V charging. It wasn't a case of faster-is-always-better; the best efficiency he saw was at 40A. However, 240V charging speeds up to 70A were only a tiny bit worse (likely within error bars), whereas 120V charging was a lot worse.
     
  12. afty

    afty Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2019
    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Agreed. Here’s a reference substantiating your statement about C rates: Fast and Ultra-fast Chargers - Battery University

    “The longevity can further be prolonged by charging and discharging below 1C; 0.8C is the recommended rate.”
     
    • Like x 1
  13. White Knight

    White Knight Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2019
    Messages:
    41
    Location:
    Honolulu, HI
    Manual says try to use 110v whenever possible. Yes, supercharging is bad. But 220v is a little bad for the battery in the long run vrs 110. So many mix comments.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC