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14 Hours to cross 800Km with SR+...[complaint about range in winter]

WilsonLam

Member
Jan 21, 2017
11
14
Waterloo
Like someone else said, you should definitely use A Better Route Planner (ABRP). Your consumption seems very good for 4 people in the car at 10C and high speeds. Everything you described seems to be normal. Unfortunately consumption is really high when you are travelling at 130km/h. You can probably save around 10 minutes by just traveling at 120km/h instead.

One of the things you have to get used to while on a road trip in a Tesla is to use the amenities placed near the chargers. Obviously during a pandemic it's not practical but getting used to it makes the road trip a lot easier.
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,437
1,868
QLD, Australia
Like someone else said, you should definitely use A Better Route Planner (ABRP). Your consumption seems very good for 4 people in the car at 10C and high speeds. Everything you described seems to be normal. Unfortunately consumption is really high when you are travelling at 130km/h. You can probably save around 10 minutes by just traveling at 120km/h instead.

One of the things you have to get used to while on a road trip in a Tesla is to use the amenities placed near the chargers. Obviously during a pandemic it's not practical but getting used to it makes the road trip a lot easier.

the optimal speed with supercharging is like 155 or 160kmh.
 

Devils son

Active Member
Dec 31, 2013
1,892
852
Omgeving Eindhoven
I wanted to share my bad experience with a Model 3 SR+.

Up to now, I was completely satisfied - although the real autonomy during winter (~10°c) is rather around 260Km, instead of the official 410Km.

But a week ago, coming back to home in France (800Km) with 4 persons in the car, weather at 5°c (+/-1°c), I was seriously disapointed. I scheduled a travel of 12 hours but:
- We can count on 150Km maximum when on the highway (130Km/h), and it's even challenging: speed must be reduced.
- Consumption was around 210Wh/Km, and no climatisation or strong heating (only the minimum required).
- When following the GPS, any change in the map is problematic: highways in France have paying stations, so exits are rare, at a distance of 20-30Km. Understand +40-60Km to come back if you miss the exit (= out of range), this happened 2 times, because of roadworks...
- Fortunately I had a non Tesla charging network to avoid the battery is under 5-10%, but such charging stations are between 11Kw and 50Kw (+30 minutes at least to jump to the following Tesla supercharger)

I am a bit confused to say that I needed 14h to do 800Km because I chose a Tesla car. By chance, the mileage predictions is relatively exact at +/- 5%. It avoids a catastrophic situation, but the cost was the same than with fuel (Tesla has increased the price of SC).

The autonomy is supposed to be reduced - not falling down... I am very curious to know the exact autonomy at 0°c of the SR+, LR, or even the new LR with improved energy savings.

And I'm struggling to understand WHY Tesla did not create a "Winter mode" in addition of the "Comfort mode" (limiting acceleration). Maybe such a winter mode could avoid to heat the battery, and improve mileage when at cold temperatures (<10°c), with similar effect on performance than comfort mode.

Well, with the 2019 Long Rang AWD+ I manage to do a trip 950 km in 10u 30m while driving max 150 km/u. This is for the most part in Germany.

It just takes a bit of planning and not to be worried to arrive at a supercharger with only 5 km to go (or less...).

Never fiddled around with heating to safe energy. So in comfort.
 
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camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,188
Vernon, BC, Canada
the optimal speed with supercharging is like 155 or 160kmh.

Sure, but one of OP's main complaints was needing to use third-party 50kW stations, which definitely changes the math on that. Such high speeds are also only optimal in a VERY ideal scenario with chargers that happen to be in the right spots at the right time for that power consumption. The natural layout of roads, chargers, and the routes people actually take on trips tends not to fit that ideal.

I just don't want to overblow Bjorn's findings to be some general recommendation or observation. Most of us don't do loops for the heck of it, we're going Point A to Point B, and that's where frustrations come about that led to this thread. Going faster would be detrimental, not helpful.
 

elptxjc

Member
Dec 15, 2019
833
268
El Paso, TX
Hey gang, what's the typical output in KWh (or Amps) of 'destination' (non-Tesla) chargers out there? Just curious about that. Want to compare it to my home NEMA 14-50 outlet, which charges at 32A from the mobile cable, which is about 32 miles per hour (according to the screen's rate), so roughtly 1A per mile of range per hour. Need to translate amps to KWh, but I think the car says like 6, which would mean like 5A per KWh, therefore Tesla's superchargers should put out about 750 Amps (32/6=5 x 150 = 750). However, 750 miles per hour of charge doesn't sound right, so where is the error? Probably because superchargers are DC current (vs AC from my house), so how can we compare apples to apples, such as miles per KWh?

At any rate, let's see what the 'destination' chargers put out. By the way, I was going to take my mobile cable, but will probably leave it connected to the garage. There's a supercharger like 5 miles where I'll be staying. And I'll carry the 'destination' adapter, so don't think it's worth taking the 115V cable. I'll have to use (free) superchargers for about 1,300 miles. It shouldn't be detrimental to the battery pack, right? Thx.
 
Last edited:

GtiMart

Active Member
Nov 13, 2019
1,568
1,429
Quebec City, Canada
Ac charging, like home: 240V, 48A yields around 11kW, that's around 70km/h charging.
Superchargers are 400V DC, you can't just compare amps, but you can compare kW of power. Superchargers output 120kW, 150kW or 250kW. Urban scs are 72kW. That is, if the conditions are met to use all that power (battery temp, current charge etc).
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,437
1,868
QLD, Australia
Sure, but one of OP's main complaints was needing to use third-party 50kW stations, which definitely changes the math on that. Such high speeds are also only optimal in a VERY ideal scenario with chargers that happen to be in the right spots at the right time for that power consumption. The natural layout of roads, chargers, and the routes people actually take on trips tends not to fit that ideal.

I just don't want to overblow Bjorn's findings to be some general recommendation or observation. Most of us don't do loops for the heck of it, we're going Point A to Point B, and that's where frustrations come about that led to this thread. Going faster would be detrimental, not helpful.

No need. 50 kw chargers usually give 42kw (well... in Aus they often drop to 35) so as long as you charge faster than you consume thats ok.

Model 3 uses around 240wh/km at 150kmh. So thats 150 x 240 = 36kw/hr. So you still charge faster. At such high speeds the difference between charging and driving isnt really very pronaunced so whether you drive 160 or 150 or whatever doesnt make much difference. anything above is a treat on the autobahn nowadays anyway...
 

Gasaraki

Active Member
Oct 21, 2019
2,189
1,514
Syracuse, NY
Yeah, thing is, the LR costs so much more than an SR+, people cannot decide by range only. Here the sr has govt incentives whereas lr doesn't (price is too high). That makes a 10000$ difference become a 23000$ difference. That's almost a second car.

Now, I agree that people must first learn about range and how various factors affect it. You know, if you just make one trip per year, why not rent a car (ice?) for that one time instead of paying thousands more on your car for that one time...

Stop buying a Tesla? You don't see my buying a Lamborghini cause I can't afford it. There are plenty of EVs that are cheaper.
 
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Gasaraki

Active Member
Oct 21, 2019
2,189
1,514
Syracuse, NY
Hey gang, what's the typical output in KWh (or Amps) of 'destination' (non-Tesla) chargers out there? Just curious about that. Want to compare it to my home NEMA 14-50 outlet, which charges at 32A from the mobile cable, which is about 32 miles per hour (according to the screen's rate), so roughtly 1A per mile of range per hour. Need to translate amps to KWh, but I think the car says like 6, which would mean like 5A per KWh, therefore Tesla's superchargers should put out about 750 Amps (32/6=5 x 150 = 750). However, 750 miles per hour of charge doesn't sound right, so where is the error? Probably because superchargers are DC current (vs AC from my house), so how can we compare apples to apples, such as miles per KWh?

At any rate, let's see what the 'destination' chargers put out. By the way, I was going to take my mobile cable, but will probably leave it connected to the garage. There's a supercharger like 5 miles where I'll be staying. And I'll carry the 'destination' adapter, so don't think it's worth taking the 115V cable. I'll have to use (free) superchargers for about 1,300 miles. It shouldn't be detrimental to the battery pack, right? Thx.

Non-tesla destination chargers vary between 8-20KW?

Why doesn't 750 mile per hour of charge sound correct? A 250KW supercharger can charge over 1000miles/hour.
 

Webeevdrivers

Active Member
Jan 2, 2017
2,434
4,576
Canada
Understand your frustration but as I tell everyone who asks me, the range on the LR is the MINIMUM i recommend for people. The SR range is just too short. It is good for "local" use. Why? The stated range on the SR looks decent, plenty for most people even. However you must take in to account of tons of other factors that cut in to that range. That range is the best case scenario. Elon himself said that 300 miles (~500km) range should be the minimum and I agree with him.

OK, here are the things that cut in to your range.

The age of car
The speed you drive
How loaded you are with passengers
How windy it is outside
What size wheels you have
What's the temperature outside
How warm you keep the cabin inside
What kind of tires you have
Do you drive on highways (autobahns) or mostly local roads?
Is it raining outside?
You want to keep the battery between 10-90% charged (better 20-80%). No one is using 100-0%.
No one is charging to 100% even on a Supercharger, takes too long.
etc, etc

Every little thing cuts in to your range that is stated. I think in the future 300 miles (500 km) needs to be the new SR and 400 miles (~650km) the new LR range for the Model 3 and other cars. Trucks (ie. Cybertruck) obviously would need 500 miles or higher if they are to be pulling and hauling stuff so their actual range while doing that would still be usable.

The SR is not a good road tripper especially in the winter time. Obviously it's doable but it won't be pretty and people shouldn't be complaining about it. It's like buying an i3 and complaining that it can only 80 miles in the winter and you have to stop so often to charge. Yeah.

That's why I laugh when the new Mach.E has a ~250 mile range for an SUV. Yeah, you won't see me looking at anything under 300 miles (500km) range.

You made a very comprehensive and ordinate list of factors affecting range in winter. I wonder if you mind me taking a screen shot and using it to help educate a few folks in a forum group I frequent here in Canada.

Thanks in advance.
 

MorrisonHiker

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2015
10,330
10,144
Colorado
Interesting that someone would purchase a model called "Short Range" then complain that his range is short.
We purchased an SR+ to tide us over while our modified Performance Model 3 was at SEMA and then sent to Japan for some racing and another auto show. We drove the SR+ on one road trip (>600 miles or 1000km) and decided the shorter range and lack of AWD wouldn't fit our needs. While the road trip was possible, the smaller capacity battery did add greatly to the time we spent Supercharging along the way. After 3 weeks and only 988 miles on the odometer, we traded it in for another LR AWD.

But yeah, if one wants to save money by getting an SR or SR+, they shouldn't expect it to be able to perform like a LR or Performance.
 
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Abyssin3

Member
Sep 24, 2020
6
15
Switzerland
(1) How many hours would you say were lost to issues with the navigation rather than the car itself?
(2) Some have mentioned SC distance and your being in a SR+, and that is a factor adding maybe 3-4 hours.
(3) Take 7 hours for the trip in an ICE car, add 3 for charging, that's 10 hours. You're only looking at MAX 4 hours above what is expected and reasonable.
(4) The car is temperature aware and automatically switches to "winter mode" without explicitly calling it by that name. As mentioned already, winter is not the right term, specifically it is the battery pack temperature that is significant. There is also the cabin heating, but that is user-choice.
(1) I would say 1h on road, but it has for consequence that autonomy is not sufficient to arrive to next charger -> slow charger -> + 30 minutes each time.
Also it was frequently necessary to reduce the speed (120Km/h) to arrive to the next SC. Even using ABRP with environmental and wieght parameters. I admit that I'm not particularly lucky...
(2) SC was Max at 120Kw per bay (vs 170Kw in summer). LR charges at 250Kw max, so it's not only the capacity which is useful.
I think there is also a cascade effect: in summer (August, 25°c), my consumption is around 115Wh/Km. Now, (0- -2°c), it's around 185Wh/Km (Winter tires) -> more frequent charges ->more Kwh to charge (and at lower charging speed)
(3) ABRP stated (and still) 10h driving + 2h of charge on the same travel/temperature/load.
(4) Good to know. I don't see much difference by heating the cabin or not, but between 15°c and 5°c, it's clearly not the same range.
 
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camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,188
Vernon, BC, Canada
Hey gang, what's the typical output in KWh (or Amps) of 'destination' (non-Tesla) chargers out there? Just curious about that. Want to compare it to my home NEMA 14-50 outlet, which charges at 32A from the mobile cable, which is about 32 miles per hour (according to the screen's rate), so roughtly 1A per mile of range per hour. Need to translate amps to KWh, but I think the car says like 6, which would mean like 5A per KWh, therefore Tesla's superchargers should put out about 750 Amps (32/6=5 x 150 = 750). However, 750 miles per hour of charge doesn't sound right, so where is the error? Probably because superchargers are DC current (vs AC from my house), so how can we compare apples to apples, such as miles per KWh?

At any rate, let's see what the 'destination' chargers put out. By the way, I was going to take my mobile cable, but will probably leave it connected to the garage. There's a supercharger like 5 miles where I'll be staying. And I'll carry the 'destination' adapter, so don't think it's worth taking the 115V cable. I'll have to use (free) superchargers for about 1,300 miles. It shouldn't be detrimental to the battery pack, right? Thx.

The error is using only amps as both a power and energy measure.
  • Energy (kWh) : A quantity, e.g. like gallons of gasoline.
  • Power (kW): A rate of energy usage. Much like horsepower.
You get power by multiplying voltage and amperage. With power, you multiply the average power by time to get energy (that's why the "h" is there).

A typical destination "non-Tesla" charger in North America (J1772 plug) is a 30A station, with the voltage being either 208V (commercial electricity) or 240V (residential). Even though both are 30A, you get more power out of a residential one (7200W or 7.2kW in theory) versus the common commercial setups (6240W or 6.24kW) simply because the voltage is different. This means if you go by the charging rate "miles per hour" on screen, they will actually vary between these two setups as well since their power is different.

That is further why Superchargers need less amperage than you might expect. They're directly feeding in around 350-403V DC, thus need less amperage for equivalent powers.

No need. 50 kw chargers usually give 42kw (well... in Aus they often drop to 35) so as long as you charge faster than you consume thats ok.

Model 3 uses around 240wh/km at 150kmh. So thats 150 x 240 = 36kw/hr. So you still charge faster. At such high speeds the difference between charging and driving isnt really very pronaunced so whether you drive 160 or 150 or whatever doesnt make much difference. anything above is a treat on the autobahn nowadays anyway...

Again, life is a lot more complicated than that.

At 240Wh/km, I'm arriving at a much lower SoC (if I arrive at all due to the higher consumption?). At a Supercharger this would mean faster charging, but not at a 50kW CCS/CHAdeMO station since they'd be current limited instead of voltage limited. At low SoC I've seen something like 32kW net into the pack, but could still be lower. But notably, that's beyond your 36kW threshold.

Also, again, this relies on ludicrous amounts of planning, ideal charger placement, etc. That's not really how roads and population centers work, and is fair beyond a reasonable expectation of using a vehicle. Remember the context of this thread: frustration.

Getting optimal charging times is already a chore on trips, and travel at much greater than 120km/h is highly illegal and unsafe pretty much everywhere... especially in winter. Restating, high speed travel should not be treated as a general benefit for time-efficient road trips. There are many problems with that when applied to almost all real-world routes.
 
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user212_nr

Active Member
Aug 26, 2019
1,407
875
US
(1) I would say 1h on road, but it has for consequence that autonomy is not sufficient to arrive to next charger -> slow charger -> + 30 minutes each time.

Those are all part of the "losses due to navigation". You would not have had to visit those slow chargers excepting for the navigation errors.

I'm not in this case: I purchased a model called "Standard Range Plus" and I'm surprised that his range is SO short.

I'm not sure what you were expecting for the trip. You have 7 hours that it would have taken in an ICE car, then 3 for charging, plus 4 for getting lost.

There is nothing wrong with the SR+, it would have taken you the same amount of time in any other EV, minus maybe an hour or so.

I've lost 2 hours on a trip due to navigation. Its humiliating, but you learn what you need to pay attention to. EVs have a decent "best case" scenario, but there are a couple ways to "get stranded" that will take hours if not days to recover from.
 
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Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
6,095
11,636
Springfield, VA
I'm not in this case: I purchased a model called "Standard Range Plus" and I'm surprised that his range is SO short.

It sounds like the bulk of your issues were caused by supercharger spacing being too far apart (requiring you to charge longer and more slowly), plus limited superchargers (requiring you to charge at 50 kW units), plus roadworks causing long diversions and some backtracking.

My rule of thumb for winter is that the car’s full range (autonomy) will be cut by between 30% and 50% in the winter, depending on conditions and travel speed. Supercharger spacing should ideally be half of that remaining range in order to facilitate fast travel. Ideal charging is from about 15% to about 65% for fastest overall travel (or 10% to 60% if you’re comfortable with a smaller bottom buffer). Once you’re pushed outside of that range, charging time increases pretty significantly.

Fortunately, I think your travel situation will improve as Tesla installs more superchargers in France, filling in the gaps and increasing the number of options available. So what you’re experiencing right now is likely the worst case scenario.
 

mrgoogle

Member
Dec 29, 2019
100
67
Eindhoven
To all people who are noobs: The SR+ is almost as fast as the LR on roadtrips. (Except for the chinese SR+ with LFP battery, which had alot of issues and charges very slow!)

I have done multiple roadtrips 1000km+ within 11hours incl. Charging and was even going to drive 2700km in 2 days from NL to Portugal, only got cancelled because of corona.

If he would have driven with 110km/h, or maybe even preheated for 3hours while starting at 100% it would have been fine.

Same mistakes could also happen with the LR, read well and you see he lost 2hours because of a detour..

Hence, even my 2016 Renault Zoe that had a maximum chargespeed of 43kW AC(!) was able to drive 930km in 12hours 3years ago, that one had a 41kWh battery and much less efficient drivetrain.

Learn to know what the car can and can’t do. At some point it’s totally comfortable to use 100 to 0%, drive as fast as the Tesla navi allows you, arrive with as low SoC possible.

*edit*
- Increase tyre pressure to 3.2bar (+5% range or so) for the trip
- Place your Aerocaps on the 18inch rims. (+2-8% range, most is on higher speeds). The 18inch rims are alot more efficient then the 19inch. Don’t forget to change this in the service menu so the navigation knows you have the extra range.
- fyi: The aero rims are 200€ each without caps, tyres or sensors.
 

GtiMart

Active Member
Nov 13, 2019
1,568
1,429
Quebec City, Canada
@camalaio , note that in France, highways have a 130km/h limit (as far as I know) so the OP was not being illegal. Also, even in winter, in many occasions the highways are clear, dry asphalt so you don't need to reduce your speed for security. I agree that on snow or ice 130km/h would be a bit fast for most people.
 

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