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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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How many MW power and/or how many MWh storage would this project need? Or GW/GWh scale maybe?

There average power consumption is 20 TWh/year or 2.3GW. If they were to partition the whole territory into microgrids capable of island mode (ability to distribute power while cut off from transmission lines or central generators). Then they would likely need around 3 GW of power and more than 3 GWh of energy storage capacity. What this battery power provides, beyond an immediate coverage of power when cut off, is the ability to integrate other generation resources within the microgrid. So for example, any local solar can still keep generating power and that power can be distributed across the microgrid. Generators can be brought in and the power is shared too.

So about 3 GW would be great to have on hand in preparation for a massive storm. In the aftermath of Maria, they are going to need to prioritize where limited battery resources can be deployed. I doubt that Tesla has a spare 3 GW just sitting at the Gigafactory. So Tesla should be able to help with a couple of small microgrids.

But the longer term opportunity to is to sell something on order of 3 GW and 12 GWh, plus a bunch solar. As they did on Kauai, they could build out integrated solar and battery systems for overnight power at price now likely below 12c/kWh. This is much cheaper than running diesel gensets overnight and it adds to overall resiliency. Such a solar+storage facility could anchor a microgrid while providing cheap power to the macrogrid. Even industrial power is over 18c/kWh, so solar+storage is a good deal for industrial and commercial customers.

Tesla Energy has a pretty substantial long-term opportunity to bring lower cost and more resilient power to this territory. So doing a great job with the near term recovery will serve them well to win a long-term project stream.
 
There average power consumption is 20 TWh/year or 2.3GW. If they were to partition the whole territory into microgrids capable of island mode (ability to distribute power while cut off from transmission lines or central generators). Then they would likely need around 3 GW of power and more than 3 GWh of energy storage capacity. What this battery power provides, beyond an immediate coverage of power when cut off, is the ability to integrate other generation resources within the microgrid. So for example, any local solar can still keep generating power and that power can be distributed across the microgrid. Generators can be brought in and the power is shared too.

So about 3 GW would be great to have on hand in preparation for a massive storm. In the aftermath of Maria, they are going to need to prioritize where limited battery resources can be deployed. I doubt that Tesla has a spare 3 GW just sitting at the Gigafactory. So Tesla should be able to help with a couple of small microgrids.

But the longer term opportunity to is to sell something on order of 3 GW and 12 GWh, plus a bunch solar. As they did on Kauai, they could build out integrated solar and battery systems for overnight power at price now likely below 12c/kWh. This is much cheaper than running diesel gensets overnight and it adds to overall resiliency. Such a solar+storage facility could anchor a microgrid while providing cheap power to the macrogrid. Even industrial power is over 18c/kWh, so solar+storage is a good deal for industrial and commercial customers.

Tesla Energy has a pretty substantial long-term opportunity to bring lower cost and more resilient power to this territory. So doing a great job with the near term recovery will serve them well to win a long-term project stream.

Smarter guy then me for sure.... and this one island out of tens of thousands. Very big opportunity. I just wish Tesla would do it by themselves and just become a giant Utility. Utilities can be very profitable because well.. people need power. Its not a luxury.
 
And some people wonder why Tesla is so avert to dealers-
bast*rds

Tesla to stop Powerwall shipments to installers price gouging in Puerto Rico

screenshot66.jpg
 

Not particularly. Their coverage is pretty middle-of-the-road IMO.

Among the big ones, the WSJ and the LA Times are really, really bad, with the NYT occasionally not that great, either.

(That said, I still read the WSJ on account of their very good newsroom and their ability to break important stories. Much of their reporting -- not talking about Tesla here, necessarily -- is top-notch, while their opinion writers are mostly crap, which is why I tend to avoid their opinion pages and editorials.)
 
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Smarter guy then me for sure.... and this one island out of tens of thousands. Very big opportunity. I just wish Tesla would do it by themselves and just become a giant Utility. Utilities can be very profitable because well.. people need power. Its not a luxury.
Hmm, at first I'm not real crazy about Tesla owning a utility. But the existing utility is basically in bankruptcy and is hard pressed to replace 40 year old generators. So maybe there's a real need here. It would be interesting to see how a Musk directed company would handle retiring a aging fleet of oil and coal plants. Imagine the irony of Tesla running such a fleet for so many years. But still Tesla could demonstrate how to manage a necessary transition.
 
Hmm, at first I'm not real crazy about Tesla owning a utility. But the existing utility is basically in bankruptcy and is hard pressed to replace 40 year old generators. So maybe there's a real need here. It would be interesting to see how a Musk directed company would handle retiring a aging fleet of oil and coal plants. Imagine the irony of Tesla running such a fleet for so many years. But still Tesla could demonstrate how to manage a necessary transition.

Another option is to partner with someone who wants to be a utility.
 
There average power consumption is 20 TWh/year or 2.3GW. If they were to partition the whole territory into microgrids capable of island mode (ability to distribute power while cut off from transmission lines or central generators). Then they would likely need around 3 GW of power and more than 3 GWh of energy storage capacity. What this battery power provides, beyond an immediate coverage of power when cut off, is the ability to integrate other generation resources within the microgrid. So for example, any local solar can still keep generating power and that power can be distributed across the microgrid. Generators can be brought in and the power is shared too.

So about 3 GW would be great to have on hand in preparation for a massive storm. In the aftermath of Maria, they are going to need to prioritize where limited battery resources can be deployed. I doubt that Tesla has a spare 3 GW just sitting at the Gigafactory. So Tesla should be able to help with a couple of small microgrids.

But the longer term opportunity to is to sell something on order of 3 GW and 12 GWh, plus a bunch solar. As they did on Kauai, they could build out integrated solar and battery systems for overnight power at price now likely below 12c/kWh. This is much cheaper than running diesel gensets overnight and it adds to overall resiliency. Such a solar+storage facility could anchor a microgrid while providing cheap power to the macrogrid. Even industrial power is over 18c/kWh, so solar+storage is a good deal for industrial and commercial customers.

Tesla Energy has a pretty substantial long-term opportunity to bring lower cost and more resilient power to this territory. So doing a great job with the near term recovery will serve them well to win a long-term project stream.

Thank you for this explanation and guidance; this was extremely helpful for me. Could you also please explain how you converted 20 TWh/year to 2.3 GW? One would have to make an assumption(s) in that calculation, right?

Also looking beyond the humanitarian crisis once that is resolved: if industrial power is over 18c/kWh, couldn't Tesla charge 17c/kWh instead of the 12c/kWh included in your example, and invest the additional cash flow into more Gigafactories?
 
Also looking beyond the humanitarian crisis once that is resolved: if industrial power is over 18c/kWh, couldn't Tesla charge 17c/kWh instead of the 12c/kWh included in your example, and invest the additional cash flow into more Gigafactories?

Very long (for Tesla) return on investment. Ties up way too much cash. That's why they've been selling off the SolarCity leases, to get cash now. Cash now builds gigafactories. Cash over the next 10 years, not so much.
 
Thank you for this explanation and guidance; this was extremely helpful for me. Could you also please explain how you converted 20 TWh/year to 2.3 GW? One would have to make an assumption(s) in that calculation, right?

Also looking beyond the humanitarian crisis once that is resolved: if industrial power is over 18c/kWh, couldn't Tesla charge 17c/kWh instead of the 12c/kWh included in your example, and invest the additional cash flow into more Gigafactories?
Hey, look, I got a calculator! :cool: 24*365* 2.3 GW comes pretty close to 20 TWh.
 
Hmm, at first I'm not real crazy about Tesla owning a utility. But the existing utility is basically in bankruptcy and is hard pressed to replace 40 year old generators. So maybe there's a real need here. It would be interesting to see how a Musk directed company would handle retiring a aging fleet of oil and coal plants. Imagine the irony of Tesla running such a fleet for so many years. But still Tesla could demonstrate how to manage a necessary transition.
Maybe Tesla would just divest power generators to independent power producers. Tesla would focus on the distribution network and power management through batteries and microgrids. The microgrids could operate as micro markets trading power internally and accessing a island market through transmission between microgrids. The IPPs would trade in this network of markets. But all power producers from a coal plant to a solar roof top could trade equally in local markets. This would encourage investment in distributed generation assets. Consumers could select from rate plans that allow them to buy at market prices or have fixed rates. In fact, third party finance companies could provide the fixed rate plans. They would intermediate between the local markets and a consumer who wants a particular rate plan.

So this would be a radically different approach to what a utility does, but I think Tesla could pull it off, assuming political support. By facilitating micro markets within microgrids, you harness the financial efficiency of a dynamic market. This actually minimizes the capital required to meet the needs of ratepayers. Traditional utilities have been enormously capital intensive. But when you harness the ability of certain ratepayers to own generation assets, you can lighten up the utility balance sheet. The utility thus does not have to be compensated for sitting on those assets. Rather through trade, the owners of generation assets are rewarded.

To make this sort of trading possible in micromakets, the utility only needs a certain amount of battery capacity to act as a local market maker. I actually have a formula for this. A batter offers power at a price depending on its state of charge, S :

Ask = Ask_50 + b×log ((1-S)/S)
Bid = Bid_50 + b×log ((1-S)/S)

So the spread is always Ask_50 - Bid_50. These are the Ask and Bid prices at 50% state of charge. At lower SOC, the prices go up. At higher SOC, the prices go down. Thus, the market maker is able to put a price on surpluses and deficits and physically balance the local micro grid. Suppose someone owns a gas generator and is willing to sell at 18 c/kWh. When the SOC is low enough the Ask price will reach 18 c/kWh and start buying from that generator. Likewise, there make be a solar roof with a certain amount of excess power to trade. Its willing to accept the Ask price from the battery market maker. As the battery fills up, this price drops. As thr price drops, other generators turn off. So the market market just needs to know what available bid and ask prices there are at a given moment, and it will trade/dispatch those trades in real time. The market maker also handles frequency and voltage regulation, which is part of how it earns its spread. Additionally, a power consumer simply buys at the current bid price. If the ratepayers wishes to have a fixed rate. There is a financial intermediary that is willing to swap a variable price from the micromarket for the fixed price that the ratepayers agrees to. So the intermediary will earn a premium for exposure to variable prices in the market. That intermediary may want to have a few energy resources within the microgrid to limit potential market losses. So this also induces them to help finance things like home batteries and local solar. If you have a good trading platform, then lots of players can participate.
 
OK, I have a new favorite analyst: Romit Shah (Nomura):

my words but his sentiment:

Bloomberg: GM says they will bury Tesla

RS: Talk is cheap

Nomura's Shah Responds to Tesla Bears: Talk Is Cheap

While I liked that line of course my favorite was the last; people are very emotional about this company and their prospects. And while that was in reference to the negativity he received for his 500 target it also speaks to the other side of the emotional coin. The one that puts smiles on people’s faces when they stomp the go pedal, the one that eases people’s anxiety when entire communities become energy independent, the one that excites people about what the future can be.

Just to get a bit froo-froo for a moment, Karma exists. What you put out is returned to you tenfold. As long as the intention of the company and the people running it remains good and true, there’s no way *we* don’t all win.
 
Thank you for this explanation and guidance; this was extremely helpful for me. Could you also please explain how you converted 20 TWh/year to 2.3 GW? One would have to make an assumption(s) in that calculation, right?

Also looking beyond the humanitarian crisis once that is resolved: if industrial power is over 18c/kWh, couldn't Tesla charge 17c/kWh instead of the 12c/kWh included in your example, and invest the additional cash flow into more Gigafactories?
Lessmog got you covered on the first question. Regarding the second, Tesla Energy and others are competing for commercial and industrial customers. So they could structure this as a PPA for whatever rate is competitive. Here the utility is not competitive at 18c/kWh. So they should be losing this business to anyone else that can set up onsite power for such ratepayers. So TE can play in this market without being a utility.

The thing that inhibits ratepayers from building out their own power solutions is the unwillingness of a utility to pay for surplus power that a customer may generate. If a customer knows they can always sell surplus at a certain price, then it reduces the financial risk of investing in the power system. So feed-in tariffs for surplus power is a very contentious issue for utilities and would-be prosumers. This is why I am proposing a micro market solution to basically put a market price on power that participants generate. An industrial may need to use a lot of natural gas for heat, but in a combined heat and power system, they can generate power in turbine and use the exhaust as heat. This is really efficient. But if the CHP produces more power than the industrial plant needs, then they need a market to sell that into. So imagine how the PR economy could perk up if manufactures could get a good deal on selling the power from a CHP system. It cuts their net cost, and it provide power at low capital cost to the utility, which reduces rates for ratepayers. So the whole local economy can benefit through trading power. In my view, this is what utilities should be doing. They should get out of the generation business and focus on enabling local power trading. This would be an asset-lite utility. It's basically Uber for electricity. But the utility laws are not set up this way! That's the barrier.
 
Sure, but the load isn't spread evenly out across the days so while the average capacity may need to be 2.3GW, you would likely need significantly more to handle peak loads.
Actually, this is how I computed average consumption from annual consumption. I could not find what their max capacity was. In terms of sizing microgrids for island mode something a bit higher than average load would be prudent, hence 3 GW. This is all just back of the envelop.
 
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