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That's 30% more energy per cell. But at the pack level the cells bigger size exactly offsets the bigger diameter. You have more energy per cell, but you lose the exact number of cells to compensate for the added size. What you gain is the added length, which is about 7%.

If what you suggest is true, the added cell area would cause a hit of about 17% using the same footprint. The added height would give a credit of about 9%. So if the 50% physically larger 2170 cell yielded only 30% more energy, you would lose 8% of the 30% increased energy, and still get a net credit of 22% more power per same area footprint.

But that's only if you accept what you say, that '30% more energy per cell.' refers to any size of cell. It makes much more sense to credit that 30% increase only to cells of the same size as the 18650, and correspondingly more energy to bigger ones. Don't you agree? That is what energy density means.

The 2170 is a bigger cell, so logically, increased energy density of 30% implies that much greater energy per volume. This means that if the cell is 50% larger, then the greater energy per (2170) cell is not 30%, but 45%. Additionally, considering the original pack footprint, this would be compounded by the added height of 9%, bringing the total added energy per pack volume to well over 50%.

If I'm missing something, please give a reference to the 2170 cell as actually losing energy density per volume - i.e. only 30% more energy for 50% greater volume. Straubel talks greater density, so less density is doubtful.
 
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No, for sure. I said everything that can fit in the 3 battery shell can fit in the S shell - not the other way around.
Now that we agree, then it no longer supports your earlier assertion that:
CandaEV said:
Tesla will probably make all actual battery packs the same (smaller) size, and adjust the outer pack structure with modified versions to fit both M3 and MS/X platforms.

Otherwise Tesla would have to drop their 100kWh offerings for the Model S, no?
 
That's 30% more energy per cell. But at the pack level the cells bigger size exactly offsets the bigger diameter. You have more energy per cell, but you lose the exact number of cells to compensate for the added size. What you gain is the added length, which is about 7%.
No. JB is speaking about energy density. See HERE.

So that's 30% more energy per unit mass of cell material, regardless of the container it's in.
 
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Why would Tesla not partner with Apple iOS for their vehicles ? I feel like that would be a business savvy move, since the seamless transition of software from vehicle to vehicle (or phone to phone) is what keeps customers attached to your brand.

Not to mention this would basically be the Apple car that Apple is looking for. Partnership for mass production vehicle like M3 would be perfect introduction of this marriage.
 
That is what energy density means.

So, there are 4 major characteristics of energy density in battery cells...
1) specific energy or gravimetric energy density, usually expressed as Wh/kg
2) volumetric energy density, usually in Wh/L
3) specific power density density, usually in W/kg
4) power density, in W/L

There are a slew of additional characteristics that are very important that isn't energy density, like cost ($/kWh), charging c-rate, discharging c-rate, cycle life, nominal voltage, and internal resistance. See:

http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_battery_specifications.pdf

For long range BEVs, usually in order of importance: specific energy, cost per kWh, discharging c-rate, charging c-rate, cycle life, volumetric energy density, and then the others.

For PHEVs, due to packaging issues, specific power density, power density, and volumetric energy density tends to dominate due to the much smaller volume that is available to generate reasonable power.

As a result, the battery chemistries between BEVs and PHEVs are often very different, or at least tuned very different.

@CanadaEV, you seem to be hung up on volumetric energy density. I submit that it is not the big issue. I believe JB Straubel was talking about specific energy, which is the biggest issue for a long range BEV. And cost is right up there, and sometimes people conflate all these together in terms of some sort measure of "better" batteries.
 
Why would Tesla not partner with Apple iOS for their vehicles ?

Because all revenue going to Apple from Carplay in Teslas is revenue that could be going to Tesla.

And Tesla wants customers to become brand loyal to Tesla not Apple.

If you interface with your car using iOS then what is important is that your next car have iOS.

Hardware becomes increasingly irrelevant.
 
For long range BEVs, usually in order of importance: specific energy, cost per kWh, discharging c-rate, charging c-rate, cycle life, volumetric energy density, and then the others.
@techmaven I'm curious what you think are the chances that Tesla's new 2170s auto cells will have a charging c-rate of 3? If not, what do you think they're charging c-rate will be?
 
Why would Tesla not partner with Apple iOS for their vehicles ? I feel like that would be a business savvy move, since the seamless transition of software from vehicle to vehicle (or phone to phone) is what keeps customers attached to your brand.

Not to mention this would basically be the Apple car that Apple is looking for. Partnership for mass production vehicle like M3 would be perfect introduction of this marriage.

That would be a very dumb move. very few people make hundred thousand dollar purchase decision based on what kind of phone they have. Let alone carplay is. And comparing to google map, apple map is just disaster.
 
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@techmaven I'm curious what you think are the chances that Tesla's new 2170s auto cells will have a charging c-rate of 3? If not, what do you think they're charging c-rate will be?

I honestly have no idea. However, the likely source of increased specific energy over the 100 kWh pack comes from additional silicon in the anode. When the 90 kWh packs came out, they had a slightly worse charging c-rate than the older cells until they felt comfortable enough to increase the rate in later firmware. One of the challenges with adding silicon has been cycle life with the bigger silicon atoms. On the other hand, Musk and JB have both talked about much faster charging rates. The 100 kWh packs today have a good charging c-rate in the middle of the SOC for a Tesla vehicle... it doesn't drop down below 100 kW until it crosses 50% SOC, and stays flat at 110 kW from about 18% SOC to 45% SOC. So the peak charging c-rate isn't all that high, but the very important middle of the taper is much improved. Even at 80% SOC, the 100 kWh pack is still getting 58 kW. See Bjorn Nyland's video:


It is curious that they don't utilize the full 135 kW available on a Supercharger though... But really, we have not seen the chemistry due for the Model 3. We really don't know. On the 100 kWh pack, many Supercharger jumps can be charged in 25-30 minutes, instead of 35-40 minutes in the older 85 kWh pack. Completely guessing, I would say no to 3C charging. We'd be happy to see 1.5-2C.
 
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Tesla, Gangnam style. Six month wait list reported for test drives in the new Gangnam district Tesla store in Seoul.

Here is the lead from the article:

South Koreans are so hyped about Tesla’s entry into the country with two brand new showrooms this week that the waiting list to test drive a car is already six months long. The air was filled with excitement and that new car smell on Friday at the U.S. electric carmaker’s first showroom in Seoul.​

Tesla Just Opened Its First South Korea Stores And There's Already A 6-Month Waiting List
 
Tesla, Gangnam style. Six month wait list reported for test drives in the new Gangnam district Tesla store in Seoul.

Here is the lead from the article:

South Koreans are so hyped about Tesla’s entry into the country with two brand new showrooms this week that the waiting list to test drive a car is already six months long. The air was filled with excitement and that new car smell on Friday at the U.S. electric carmaker’s first showroom in Seoul.​

Tesla Just Opened Its First South Korea Stores And There's Already A 6-Month Waiting List
But I read on this forum that demand was declining.
 
Tesla, Gangnam style. Six month wait list reported for test drives in the new Gangnam district Tesla store in Seoul.

Here is the lead from the article:

South Koreans are so hyped about Tesla’s entry into the country with two brand new showrooms this week that the waiting list to test drive a car is already six months long. The air was filled with excitement and that new car smell on Friday at the U.S. electric carmaker’s first showroom in Seoul.​

Tesla Just Opened Its First South Korea Stores And There's Already A 6-Month Waiting List

South Koreans love technology. In many ways their tech adoption curve is way ahead of us here in the US. There is no such thing as download wait time while online, it happens "instantly" the moment you download. You'll be amazed with the functionality and their love of technology in S.K. I'm glad Tesla is finally in this country, it'll be a very big market for them.

You guys remember the Chinese craze when Tesla entered that market right? We generated hundreds of news feed per day, Koreans will hypebeast Tesla even more than China.
 
Do any of you know how to buy the convertible senior notes? I'm already long on the stock (and I have SolarCity bonds). I might as well "diversify" into the notes too :)
You should be able to buy them on fidelity. Just search for the cusip which can be found here.

Domestic bonds: Tesla Motors, 1.25% 1mar2021, USD (Conv.) (US88160RAC51, 88160RAC5)

For some reason, the search on fidelity by the issuer name was not working for me. Also the latest issue is not here. But this is a reasonably similar 2021 maturity. I think the latest one would be available after the 22nd.
 
This is just getting silly now:

Tesla Motors (TSLA) PT Raised to $187 at Goldman Sachs; Maintains 'Sell'

Honestly. What kind of world view does that represent if an analyst believes he can build a model that's so precise, that he needs to adjust it with 2 to 5$ when he gets new information.

If I was the boss of this guy I would be tempted to fire him just for the fact the adjusts a price target by 1.06% on a stock that is CLEARLY one of the hardest to accurately price in the entire market.
 
This is just getting silly now:

Tesla Motors (TSLA) PT Raised to $187 at Goldman Sachs; Maintains 'Sell'

Honestly. What kind of world view does that represent if an analyst believes he can build a model that's so precise, that he needs to adjust it with 2 to 5$ when he gets new information.

If I was the boss of this guy I would be tempted to fire him just for the fact the adjusts a price target by 1.06% on a stock that is CLEARLY one of the hardest to accurately price in the entire market.

When did happen. Friday? Was this after the close?
 
Why would Tesla not partner with Apple iOS for their vehicles ? I feel like that would be a business savvy move, since the seamless transition of software from vehicle to vehicle (or phone to phone) is what keeps customers attached to your brand.

Not to mention this would basically be the Apple car that Apple is looking for. Partnership for mass production vehicle like M3 would be perfect introduction of this marriage.

Please no! Tesla shouldn't bailout Apple.
 
Since it's March I'll use a basketball analogy. In many ways GS analysts are like the "average Joe" basketball player on a team. They are bench warmers who practice free throws day after day, preparing themselves for that one opportunity to shine. Once inserted into the lineup, they squander the basketball and throw up an air ball. As fans, we can't expect much from these guys, after all, they are bench warmers.

In regards to Tesla, the fact that GS has been so wrong on so many occasions indicate that things aren't going to change, on the other hand, the league does have the superstars to look out for, like Andrea James... Picking stocks and deciphering through the miracle list of analysts have very similar characteristics, you have to quickly learn who the "losers" are and gut them out of your portfolio, otherwise, you're wasting you time, livelihood and brain cells on insignificant bench warmers.
 
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