60 or 85--I Need Help in Deciding!!!

[xray]

Yes, your unless was "doing autocross or track days". I never did either of them and realize the difference 100 times a day, so in my opinion your statement is still wrong. It would be correct if you say "unless you put the accelerator down more than 2/3" there is no difference. The same when you drive on the highway having your cruise control on, no difference

For me it is also not who/what can catch me. It's the poor joy of feeling that 3.9 seconds. After 10.000 miles I am still not sick flooring it, it's always that aaaaaaah feeling . And this feeling is just not there in the 60.

Not sure that I should add fuel to this discussion, but what the heck.

My wife had a 60 loaner (I didn't get a chance to drive it), and she immediately remarked that she could definitely tell the difference in acceleration with the P85. I'm not saying its worth the extra money for everyone, but it was for me. After more than 10000 miles, I also agree that there is something very amazing about that linear, smooth acceleration that is most akin to a roller coaster.

 

[eAdopter]

Beware of the idea that you’ll be able to upgrade a 2012-2014 Model S beyond the current 60/85 kWh capacity.

I have legal documentation from TM that clearly states:

1. TM will offer Extended Battery Warranties. They’re expensive, $7500 for the maximum three-year extension.
2. TM will (does) offer replacement batteries after the first battery warranty expires.
   However, there’s a significant(!) wrinkle in that plan. The new batteries will cost between $10k and $12k, and will have only a ONE-YEAR warranty, and only against absolute/complete failure.

My speculation:

Together, the facts above will create a significant disincentive to purchase either an Extended Battery Warranty or a new (upgraded) battery.

While as an owner I’m not pleased, this is consistent with TM plans to generate additional profit in a few years.

I think these circumstances will spur another round of purchases by (satisfied) owners when cars become worn and/or out-of-warranty. I think this is good from a business/stockholder perspective, but less favorable for current owners.

In summary, battery upgrades to existing cars don’t appear to be part of the long-range TM plan. Instead, TM appears to be planning to let the 40/60/85 cars become obsolete by making battery replacements/upgrades financially impractical.

Need proof or an example?: Ask TM for a Roadster battery upgrade.

This shouldn’t shock anyone. It’s typical for manufactures to do this and makes financial sense.

I think it’s unfortunate that a car this durable will be obsolete so relatively soon, and that TM will be encouraging it. On the other hand, my TSLA stock is way up! :smile:

 

[AlMc]

True, but I also bet there any many 85 owners who have never used more than 60 kWh of their battery at any one time.

Ok. But it is there if they need it.

 

[texex91]

Thanks for all of the replies guys.

I've decided to not move forward with Tesla at this time (that might change after my scheduled test drive next Friday :smile.

After spending a bunch of time looking at the issues involved with the car right now, just seems like Tesla has a little more growing up to do quality wise (not a bad thing as I think they have what it takes--don't start with the negative reply)--tire issues (amazing they don't fix this on 21" tires), pretty poor interior for $100K car, stereo is lacking, questionable (unknown) resale down the road, charging station availability, and a host of other things--some of which by the way I'm happy to look the other way on--no biggie.

Will drive next Friday, and my tune may COMPLETELY change once I floor it :love:

I think Tesla is on the right road--just may be a little early for me. See what improvements come in Jan-Feb next year.

See you all next Friday...

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Beware of the idea that you’ll be able to upgrade a 2012-2014 Model S beyond the current 60/85 kWh capacity.

I have legal documentation from TM that clearly states:

1. TM will offer Extended Battery Warranties. They’re expensive, $7500 for the maximum three-year extension.
2. TM will (does) offer replacement batteries after the first battery warranty expires.
   However, there’s a significant(!) wrinkle in that plan. The new batteries will cost between $10k and $12k, and will have only a ONE-YEAR warranty, and only against absolute/complete failure.

[...]

In summary, battery upgrades to existing cars don’t appear to be part of the long-range TM plan. Instead, TM appears to be planning to let the 40/60/85 cars become obsolete by making battery replacements/upgrades financially impractical.

Need proof or an example?: Ask TM for a Roadster battery upgrade.

This shouldn’t shock anyone. It’s typical for manufactures to do this and makes financial sense.

I think it’s unfortunate that a car this durable will be obsolete so relatively soon, and that TM will be encouraging it. On the other hand, my TSLA stock is way up! :smile:

It’s just that everything you’re saying goes against what Elon has been saying all along about Tesla/electric cars being all about a more sustainable future.

Tesla could ‘only’ sell some 2500 Roadsters, but even so they have said they’ll present something for these Roadsters next year.

What will the total production of Model S & X amount to in your scenario above if everything goes according to plan, which it seems to be doing?

Shouldn’t economies of scale, and hopefully also gradual improvements in battery tech, go a long way to give battery replacements for Model S/X’s a much better business case than currently exist for the Roadsters (as I understand it)?

And if everything goes according to plan, which again, it seems to be doing, shouldn’t Tesla be in a much better place financially and engineering resource wise to prevent/address your scenario when the time comes?

 

[jerry33]

After spending a bunch of time looking at the issues involved with the car right now, just seems like Tesla has a little more growing up to do quality wise (not a bad thing as I think they have what it takes--don't start with the negative reply)--tire issues (amazing they don't fix this on 21" tires), pretty poor interior for $100K car, stereo is lacking, questionable (unknown) resale down the road, charging station availability, and a host of other things--some of which by the way I'm happy to look the other way on--no biggie.

1. Unfortunately, some of the loaners/demo cars are not that new and didn't pass inspection. Mine at 5031 has no quality issues that I'm aware of.

2. How the audio system sounds depends a lot on the source. Use a thumb drive, USB port, and FLAC lossless compression and the audio becomes great (Not $6K aftermarket upgrade great though). I'm really pleased with mine.

3. The tire issues seem to have more to do with getting the toe-in right, as there are people getting good milage out of them. My car has the 19" tires and they are wearing evenly at 8800 miles.

4. The guaranteed resale value puts a floor on what the car will be worth. However, no car in this price range will have a Prius-like resale value. This may change over time as people realize that the car just doesn't give problems later in life (assuming that this is the case).

 

[Chas F]

I've had my MS60 for 4 months now and here's what I've found/believe:

1. Agree with the sentiment that driving habits will change just because of the car. I previously calculated that I wouldn't need more than the 40kWh battery. The only reason I moved up to the 60 was to accelerate my delivery date. I've found that the 40 still would have been enough for 95% of my travel, but the 60 takes me to 98% as I now take longer trips for mundane reasons just because. Lunch is now way across town rather than the closest eatery to my home. No consideration towards gas costs or guilt about wasting natural resources.
2. Do I regret not getting the 85kWh? Not a chance. I think your driving habits adjust to the battery that you have. If I had the 40kWh, I think it would meet all my needs and I would be happy with it. If I had the 85kWh, I think it would meet all my needs and I would be happy with it. I believe it's the same effect as adjusting ones lifestyle to their paycheck. No matter how much you make, you always seems to have just enough. More would be just a buffer.

 

[dsm363]

Thanks for all of the replies guys.

I've decided to not move forward with Tesla at this time (that might change after my scheduled test drive next Friday :smile.

After spending a bunch of time looking at the issues involved with the car right now, just seems like Tesla has a little more growing up to do quality wise (not a bad thing as I think they have what it takes--don't start with the negative reply)--tire issues (amazing they don't fix this on 21" tires), pretty poor interior for $100K car, stereo is lacking, questionable (unknown) resale down the road, charging station availability, and a host of other things--some of which by the way I'm happy to look the other way on--no biggie.

Will drive next Friday, and my tune may COMPLETELY change once I floor it :love:

I think Tesla is on the right road--just may be a little early for me. See what improvements come in Jan-Feb next year.

See you all next Friday...

Have fun at the test drive. There really isn't a 21" tire problem that needs fixing but rather a fact of driving a very high torque car with summer tires. That is expected. A few have had some excessive wear on both 19 and 21" rims due to alignment issues I believe but something you would just keep an eye on. If you can't stomach replacing tires every 10,000 miles or so the 19" all season tires will last much longer and give you better range anyway.

This isn't a car you'll likely want to sell soon but any car over $25,000 is a poor investment and resale value tanks as soon as you drive it one mile. Of course you should try and buy a car with a decent resale value but if you are looking for 5 or 10 year resale value for the Model S to feel comfortable then will have to wait a long time of course. This is one of those cars you get for the many other benefits and hope the resale value is good in 10 years which some think it will.

Texas will have good coverage of the triangle by the end of the year. 99% of my charging is done at home. Not really any charging issues in Texas unless you drive out into the middle of nowhere.

The interior isn't bad at all. Might not be S class Mercedes quality but also doesn't get 20mpg efficiency. There are trade offs with anything.

 

[texex91]

Have fun at the test drive. There really isn't a 21" tire problem that needs fixing but rather a fact of driving a very high torque car with summer tires. That is expected. A few have had some excessive wear on both 19 and 21" rims due to alignment issues I believe but something you would just keep an eye on. If you can't stomach replacing tires every 10,000 miles or so the 19" all season tires will last much longer and give you better range anyway.

This isn't a car you'll likely want to sell soon but any car over $25,000 is a poor investment and resale value tanks as soon as you drive it one mile. Of course you should try and buy a car with a decent resale value but if you are looking for 5 or 10 year resale value for the Model S to feel comfortable then will have to wait a long time of course. This is one of those cars you get for the many other benefits and hope the resale value is good in 10 years which some think it will.

Texas will have good coverage of the triangle by the end of the year. 99% of my charging is done at home. Not really any charging issues in Texas unless you drive out into the middle of nowhere.

The interior isn't bad at all. Might not be S class Mercedes quality but also doesn't get 20mpg efficiency. There are trade offs with anything.

I appreciate the feedback. As you can probably tell, I'm trying to find every excuse to actually buy.

I hate having to wait a week to drive it, but I can handle that.

Lots of great info on this forum, and has made things easier (and harder in someways) to make a decision.

Thought of buying another 'boring' Porsche is not fun. Tesla S has a lot of uniqueness factor which I like.

Good news is, that if I order it looks like about 1 month wait--not bad.

 

[purplewalt]

I appreciate the feedback. As you can probably tell, I'm trying to find every excuse to actually buy.

I hate having to wait a week to drive it, but I can handle that.

Lots of great info on this forum, and has made things easier (and harder in someways) to make a decision.

Thought of buying another 'boring' Porsche is not fun. Tesla S has a lot of uniqueness factor which I like.

Good news is, that if I order it looks like about 1 month wait--not bad.

I knew as soon as I sat it the Model S (in the Austin gallery), that I was going to purchase one.
No test rides.
No test drives.
Just a nice quiet sort of "sit in it" and get comfortable.

I am kinda tall, 6'-3", and needed to confirm I had adequate headroom and then legroom.
Got my first test drive (after orientation) at the Dallas Service Center just over two weeks later, then took my S85 home that night.

Had seen a couple on the street in traffic, one finally up close.
It just needed to pass MY "sit test".

Perhaps some people need a bit more convincing with an actual test drive.

 

[texex91]

I knew as soon as I sat it the Model S (in the Austin gallery), that I was going to purchase one.
No test rides.
No test drives.
Just a nice quiet sort of "sit in it" and get comfortable.

I am kinda tall, 6'-3", and needed to confirm I had adequate headroom and then legroom.
Got my first test drive (after orientation) at the Dallas Service Center just over two weeks later, then took my S85 home that night.

Had seen a couple on the street in traffic, one finally up close.
It just needed to pass MY "sit test".

Perhaps some people need a bit more convincing with an actual test drive.

To funny, most cars I have bought, I never even drove (because I buy them out of town--Porsche in Dallas/Plano).

This one is different, just because of the unknown (or after this forum--maybe not so unknown :smile.

Just one week, I can wait, but, every minute, I'm more and more convinced.

Did you get pano?

 

[dsm363]

To funny, most cars I have bought, I never even drove (because I buy them out of town--Porsche in Dallas/Plano).

This one is different, just because of the unknown (or after this forum--maybe not so unknown :smile.

Just one week, I can wait, but, every minute, I'm more and more convinced.

Did you get pano?

Main advantage of pano roof is the added headroom especially for the rear passengers. If you have tall people in the family have them sit in the back to see if they are comfortable. I have the pano roof and although I don't open it that often, still like it. Sun and heat are really not an issue with it in Texas.

 

[jthompson]

No brainer. If you can afford the 85 do it. This allows you to use the Superchargers, and gives you worry free traveling between superchargers.

 

[texex91]

Main advantage of pano roof is the added headroom especially for the rear passengers. If you have tall people in the family have them sit in the back to see if they are comfortable. I have the pano roof and although I don't open it that often, still like it. Sun and heat are really not an issue with it in Texas.

Good point. If I really don't carry passengers at all, would you still get it?

 

[dsm363]

Good point. If I really don't carry passengers at all, would you still get it?

I would just because I find it a neat feature. Venting the roof before cooling the cabin also helps. It's one of the features that can be dropped easily if you really don't see a need. Try and sit in a non pano roof version yourself to make sure you fit ok as well but it usually isn't an issue for people I think.

 

[purplewalt]

Did you get pano?

I have been in Texas over 50 years, and have experienced some brutally hot summers.
Guess if I lived in Silicon Valley, Seattle, Boston, Chicago, Milwaukee, Europe (or if I had any hair on the top of my head) I would have gotten the pano roof, as I love the way it looks (from the outside).
My major consideration was for the heat factor, how to best mitigate that element.
Most of the other Model S owners I have met have the pano roof, some have added tint to it.

People up North must consider snow and winter in their decision making about what Options/tires/features to get for their vehicles.
My MS solid roof is a (my) fail-safe strategy from Texas' sun/heat.

 

[texex91]

I have been in Texas over 50 years, and have experienced some brutally hot summers.
Guess if I lived in Silicon Valley, Seattle, Boston, Chicago, Milwaukee, Europe (or if I had any hair on the top of my head) I would have gotten the pano roof, as I love the way it looks (from the outside).
My major consideration was for the heat factor, how to best mitigate that element.
Most of the other Model S owners I have met have the pano roof, some have added tint to it.

People up North must consider snow and winter in their decision making about what Options/tires/features to get for their vehicles.
My MS solid roof is a (my) fail-safe strategy from Texas' sun/heat.

That's my thought as well. On my 911 it's a solid roof, and only see outside if you open--which I never do. By contrast my S5 has sunroof, but has screen over it. I never open it. So think solid roof is fine--especially since I don't carry people in my back seat.

 

[purplewalt]

By contrast my S5 has sunroof, but has screen over it. I never open it. So think solid roof is fine--especially since I don't carry people in my back seat.

I looked at S5, thought their idea for a sunroof could use some improvement.
It couldn't actually open, only pop-up vent at the rear, the scrim/screen was kinda wimpy, and could not blocked the sun.

The Model S has a HUGE rear seat, no hump in the middle of the floor.
In lieu of three rear seat passengers, maybe you use it to occasionally haul stuff with the seat laid flat.

 

[brianman]

True, but I also bet there any many 85 owners who have never used more than 60 kWh of their battery at any one time.

I think the number you should be quoting is something like 55 kWh, maybe 50 kWh. (Buffers on each end.)

- - - Updated - - -

Very happy with my stupidly quick 60. Even after driving a P85+ for a day of joy riding and don't think you'd notice the difference unless you were doing autocross or track days.

I know you love your 60 but "not notice a difference between a 60 and a P85" is just nonsense. I just had a 60 loaner while my P85 was in the shop. I was positively surprised how fast the car is, but I could not wait to get my P85 back. As I quoted in another thread where I wrote about my experience, accelerating with the 60 you say "niiiiice", doing so with the P85 you say "holy sh$%^$t".

I have to back joer00 on this one.

Maddy relayed a story today about a Tesla owner that had a 60 in for service, and got a P85 loaner. When he returned with the loaner after a day or two, and then departed with his own vehicle he called back to report that his vehicle seemed broken. That it was much slower than before.

I'm sure this isn't a singleton story.

 

[Longhorn92]

True, but I also bet there any many 85 owners who have never used more than 60 kWh of their battery at any one time.

I think the number you should be quoting is something like 55 kWh, maybe 50 kWh. (Buffers on each end.)

Agree, and I did think about that, but I didn't want to confuse the point.