980 vs 990 motor settled

[john5520]

From: Electrified Garage <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 11:52 AM
To: #######
Subject: Re: General question

Hi ######,
We haven't tried to do any benchmarking. The mosfet in the motor is about 15-20% less so a similar decrease in output is expected. They're capable of more than what Tesla has put out but we haven't had time to mess with them to see the point of failure or not.

Posted in another thread, but I'll post it here too. The above is a reply from EG regarding the 990. It's doubtful it's maxed out. It's less capable than the 980 it seems, but more capable than what we've seen. It's just that no one has tested them yet.

IMO, the main reason the Tesla boost upgrade is capped is to not compete with the P. It is unlikely it has anything to do with the capability of one motor over the other.

Most would not pay for the P if the AWD can be boosted to similar performance for thousands less.

 

[SammichLover]

Our resident historian might be here shortly but that particular uncork for Model S was for newer versions, so it'd basically be the other way around - where they rewarded 990 motors instead of 980's.

Yeah, that was my vague recollection, too. Which is why I added the second part to the post.

....I'm sure the general population of buyers are happy with their AWD cars just how it is. I see a lot of Fb posts from people how it has more power than they'll ever need. And it's not even the fast one.

Need ain't' got anything to do with it. The D already has more than I can prudently fully unfurl on public streets. I'm quite happy with it. But I'd like more and I haven't even bothered with the Boost, because I'm not really about straight lines.

 

[MagnusMako]

I guess more power than they'll ever *use* is more what I meant. Most of 'em won't ever take advantage of that power. I do concur about not being purely about straight lines though. I love the twisties.

 

[Knightshade]

Our resident historian might be here shortly but that particular uncork for Model S was for newer versions, so it'd basically be the other way around - where they rewarded 990 motors instead of 980's.

Exactly... the newer S cars got the uncork. This would be the opposite.

Tesla would be making public the fact newer buyers- future buyers are getting a physically inferior car.

Which is probably not a good look for them.

O
I'm sure there would be a few disgruntled customers if Tesla offered an unlock for us 980's, but I don't personally think it would have any significant impact on PR or otherwise. I know there are people who disagree with that, but I stand by it. Tesla has done plenty to aggravate people in many other ways. Most people probably don't even know anything close to this kind of thing could possibly exist, and I'm sure the general population of buyers are happy with their AWD cars just how it is. I see a lot of Fb posts from people how it has more power than they'll ever need. And it's not even the fast one.

It's entirely possible nobody's really care.

On the other hand- there are still a fairly rabid bunch of anti-tesla folks who'd likely be publishing stories all over about "Tesla now using inferior drive units in new cars"

A great deal offered in exchange for the moment cash flow purposes. That's how I ended up with FSD for only $2,000 on top of EAP, after all.

Sure it very well might not happen but it wouldn't be particularly ahistorical or out of character for Tesla.

To my knowledge that's the only time Tesla ever ran a "sale" on any SW option, and they admitted when they stopped it soon after doing so was a mistake they didn't intend to repeat.

 

[pdx_m3s]

My May-2019 SR+ got the 980 motor. Do we know if 2020 SR+ still gets the 980?

 

[Knightshade]

My May-2019 SR+ got the 980 motor. Do we know if 2020 SR+ still gets the 980?

View attachment 551139

AFAIK every model 3 ever made, of any trim, gets the 980 rear DU except for later LR AWD models which are the only thing I've ever seen a 990 reported in.

Presumably without a front motor to help out the RWD versions need the "better" rear.

(the cut off date for the LR AWD switch is vague- I've seen 990s reported as early as Jan 2019 deliveries, and 980s as late as I think July/August deliveries; but AFAIK LR AWD has been 100% 990s since then)

 

[ECTO-1]

June 2019 AWD here, I got the 990. Not disappointed by any means. I am one of those people who would like to have all the power I can get, however I would hardly use it. I will get the $2k boost before the end of the month, not because I need it by any means, just because I can afford to toss away that amount of $. I enjoy "Chill" mode as my daily setting.

Oh, I am interested to see how it pulls with the rebalancing of the power once I get the "sport" mode.

ECTO-1

 

[Zoomit]

AFAIK every model 3 ever made, of any trim, gets the 980 rear DU except for later LR AWD models which are the only thing I've ever seen a 990 reported in.

Presumably without a front motor to help out the RWD versions need the "better" rear.

(the cut off date for the LR AWD switch is vague- I've seen 990s reported as early as Jan 2019 deliveries, and 980s as late as I think July/August deliveries; but AFAIK LR AWD has been 100% 990s since then)

Except for the mysterious 970 IGBT motor, an example of which came off a 7/18 LR RWD. I thought that was just a relic of 2018 production hell, but the peculiar thing is that the 970 is still in the EPC, as shown below. More specifically, a Rev F is listed while the picture is of a Rev D. So there was at least some continued development since mid-2018. FWIW, the Model Y EPC only lists the 980 and 990 rear motors.

 

[Knightshade]

Except for the mysterious 970 IGBT motor, an example of which came off a 7/18 LR RWD. I thought that was just a relic of 2018 production hell, but the peculiar thing is that the 970 is still in the EPC, as shown below. More specifically, a Rev F is listed while the picture is of a Rev D. So there was at least some continued development since mid-2018. FWIW, the Model Y EPC only lists the 980 and 990 rear motors.

I was aware the 970 existed in the catalog- but that one you linked to is the only example I've ever seen of the part actually existing- agreed it's pretty weird there's a newer rev in the catalog when nobody else (AFAIK) has ever reported seeing one in a car.

 

[MagnusMako]

Of course once Rich actually tested the AWD with a draggy instead of a human-measured 2 car race- the times sucked.

He showed 5 runs, with an average of ~3.42 for 0-60.

Which is pretty terrible for something that allegedly "beat" a P over and over.

I see 3.4x all the time in the Dragy leaderboards. Also, he could have been on a positive slope in one of his runs that he did the 3.59 as he did not post the verified screen either.

His runs were 3.27, 3.38, 3.40, 3.45, 3.59. 3.59 is pretty distant from 3.27 and it's very much an outlier. Much better just taking the average from the rest of the numbers and you get 3.37 - which is a very normal P3 number dependent on weight of the driver and slope. Also his runs appeared to have been done in different spots, which probably had different slopes.

 

[john5520]

FWIW, the Model Y EPC only lists the 980 and 990 rear motors.

That's interesting. So we'll more than likely see the 990 showing up in the Y at some point if it hasn't already.

 

[Knightshade]

I see 3.4x all the time in the Dragy leaderboards. Also, he could have been on a positive slope in one of his runs that he did the 3.59 as he did not post the verified screen either.

His runs were 3.27, 3.38, 3.40, 3.45, 3.59. 3.59 is pretty distant from 3.27 and it's very much an outlier. Much better just taking the average from the rest of the numbers and you get 3.37 - which is a very normal P3 number dependent on weight of the driver and slope. Also his runs appeared to have been done in different spots, which probably had different slopes.

Yes.

All of which seem to contradict the idea that car, which didn't put up any runs faster than a real P (and several slower than the better P times) easily beat a real P, over and over again, in the races they showed.

 

[JBT66]

Not that I think they’ll do it but I’m sure they
Could find someway to put positive spin allowing early adopters with AWD and 980 motors to upgrade. But my guess is AWD+ is as good as we can get officially.

 

[SammichLover]

Not that I think they’ll do it but I’m sure they
Could find someway to put positive spin allowing early adopters with AWD and 980 motors to upgrade. But my guess is AWD+ is as good as we can get officially.

Very easy to spin it, "we care about our early adopters" is very Tesla.

But unless they get really hungry for the maybe $20 mil laying out there on the table (wildass guess of $5,000 x 4,000 potential vehicles) it isn't going to happen.

 

[Knightshade]

Very easy to spin it, "we care about our early adopters" is very Tesla.

But unless they get really hungry for the maybe $20 mil laying out there on the table (wildass guess of $5,000 x 4,000 potential vehicles) it isn't going to happen.

that number of takers seems very very low...

980 LR AWD cars would be Q3 and Q4 deliveries (and some Q1/2 of 19 but likely declining #s)... Tesla delivered about 120,000 Model 3s in Q3/Q4... they don't give the breakdown of RWD vs AWD vs P of course... but they'd already been delivering RWD cars for almost a year at this point so likely those 120k are heavily weighted to AWD and P...

But even if only 1/3rd are LR AWD, that's 40,000 potential customers, not 4,000.... and the number's probably higher... at 5k each you'd be talking 200 million dollars, not 20.

 

[Msjulie]

A coworker has a 3 AWD; I'm gonna guess there's a fair number like him that won't get the boost and didn't want the Performance 3 as it is easily faster than any previous car he has owned. I think folks like us on forums *may* be disportionately enthusiasts and even here it's not 100%

 

[Knightshade]

Presumably Tesla has data on who took the 2k boost (and which of em have 980 motors while we're at it) so they should have a rough idea exactly what the potential customer base is if they were to ever consider a full unlock.

I'd be willing to bet it's closer to 40,000 folks (which was already a lowball guess on # of 980 LR AWDs out there) than the 4000 suggested earlier though, assuming reasonable pricing.

 

[JBT66]

Definitely more than 4000 the AWD is the most popular config. I’d guess 40000 is even a bit low.

 

[MagnusMako]

Definitely more than 4000 the AWD is the most popular config. I’d guess 40000 is even a bit low.

Considering this is about a limited number of AWD's (980's) produced in a certain time period - I think 40k could be a pretty high number. Remember, the AWD was not the first model 3 introduced, it was the LR RWD, then AWD and then the MR RWD. I recall looking at a public order tracker spreadsheet and I think AWD was only around 40% of all orders when P3/LRRWD/MR/SR were all in the mix. I also think that uptake is naturally going to be low if the price is anything significant.

 

[Knightshade]

Considering this is about a limited number of AWD's (980's) produced in a certain time period - I think 40k could be a pretty high number. Remember, the AWD was not the first model 3 introduced, it was the LR RWD, then AWD and then the MR RWD. I recall looking at a public order tracker spreadsheet and I think AWD was only around 40% of all orders when P3/LRRWD/MR/SR were all in the mix. I also think that uptake is naturally going to be low if the price is anything significant.

Tesla delivered over 120,000 Model 3s in the 2 quarters the AWD was on sale and the 980 was the only motor used.... 40% would be 48,000 cars.

And then at least some thousands more (possibly 10s of thousands more) who got 980s into 2019.