A yoke or a joke?

[bo3bdar]

Randy is a great driver.

Anyone driving at the highest levels of motorsports uses a yoke.

I'm sure that everyone who buys a Plaid also wears their nomex suits and helmets when they go to pick up groceries. Right?

 

[JimLL]

People are buying the S with a yoke. They're driving around with it and making turns, parking, ...etc... it takes time to get used to and they will.

The yoke FUD is much like how the M3 didn't come with a instrument panel and only came with the single nav panel. Lots of anonymous nicks were crowing about how the M3 would be a complete flop and it was the opposite. People drove it and adapted quickly. MY has the same format and is also selling very well.

Of COURSE you/we/us will get used to the yoke for day to day driving. The problem with your comparison is that if you wind up in an emergency situation, where instincts must take over, not having the instrument panel isn't going to matter. But grabbing for the top of the steering wheel that has existed for 100 years and literally every person on earth is used to and it is not there, will definitely matter. What if you have literally seconds or less to react?

Is the yoke cool? Absolutely. In fact, I think in some driving conditions, it may be better than a traditional wheel. But what happens if you have to react? What if you are in a spin and you grab for a wheel that isn't there and the yoke starts spinning with the car? Rhetorically, are you going to be composed and grab the right spot to compensate?

Just some food for thought!

 

[wooter]

The problem with your comparison is that if you wind up in an emergency situation, where instincts must take over, not having the instrument panel isn't going to matter. But grabbing for the top of the steering wheel that has existed for 100 years and literally every person on earth is used to and it is not there, will definitely matter.

We've been over this: if you, in an emergency situation at speed, need to steer more than 100º in either direction, you already lost control of the car and are just struggling to get it back under control.

Any advanced driver training worth its money, training things like single or double lane change to avoid an obstacle, will never have their trainees turn more than 100º in either direction. That's just because you're approaching at speed, and the goal is to stay in control, not to lose it.

These trainings also show you how to steer lock to lock without losing control at any time, for J-turns and on drift circles. Hardly 'emergency' situations.

 

[MagnusMako]

It's not even the high speed situations I think are most peoples concerns I've heard voiced. Several owners have already reported that the use of the yoke is cumbersome at low speeds and I can see completely why. The whole idea of people will/should/just need to 'get used to it' is non-sense and illogical. If something is worse in any situation than before in driving at any speed, then whatever advantages it has are completely negated. I can't think of a single situation where lack of being able to see the front screen has been a danger or issue.

Therefore people need to stop being apologists and face the facts. The yoke is not for everyone. The masses do not want to have to deal with an inferior design for form over function. I work in the ergonomics industry and everything is moving towards creating comfort around the human body. The wheel is a completely natural and pure design that serves to allow good driving for the common denominator of every day driving speeds. Formula One cars have a yoke for different reasons. Maybe if the yoke had progressive steering then it would be a non-issue, but that's still years away per Elon.

 

[JimLL]

We've been over this: if you, in an emergency situation at speed, need to steer more than 100º in either direction, you already lost control of the car and are just struggling to get it back under control.

Any advanced driver training worth its money, training things like single or double lane change to avoid an obstacle, will never have their trainees turn more than 100º in either direction. That's just because you're approaching at speed, and the goal is to stay in control, not to lose it.

These trainings also show you how to steer lock to lock without losing control at any time, for J-turns and on drift circles. Hardly 'emergency' situations.

Yeah, not talking about a car stopping short on the motorway or swerving in front of you or accident avoidance. I am talking about the unforeseen. And how many every day citizens are attending an advanced driver course? I'll try it simpler terms, I am not "anti yoke", but there will be issues on roads due to the yoke. 100%!
You can defend it and support it and promote it, and I will back you up 95% of the time. However, random, every day people are going to buy this car and there will be panicked or rushed decisions that have to be made and accidents will happen.

 

[Wol747]

>>but Autopilot drives confident enough that you can manage with just one hand on the highway and mayor roads.<<

Irrelevant! The car may well be confident but we’re not talking about that.
when the car is making a large turn - 90’ or more - you can be “in control” by allowing a wheel to slip through your fingers. With a yoke that’s gone to or over vertical what are you holding? If it’s the “wrong” hand you’re in trouble if you need to disengage. If it’s the “correct” hand it’s down by the opposite knee!
And, let’s face it - the autopilot is most likely to be in trouble in just these situations - 90’ and over turns.

 

[Wol747]

>>Maybe if the yoke had progressive steering then it would be a non-issue, but that's still years away per Elon.<<

For the average driver (obviously not us, we’re all above average….) progressive steering introduces a whole new set of issues. In any case, if the yoke’s such an improvement then why would a very expensive cludge be necessary?
I can quite see why some like the yoke - it does look “cool” and might make me feel like a Learjet pilot, but as a downgrade from the wheel it has NO advantages except possibly not obscuring one or two secondary icons but with several critical safety issues.
Losing the stalks just adds to the list of negatives, IMO.
Sometimes, things that have evolved for decades to become standard actually ARE best.

 

[ucmndd]

I watched Matt Farrah’s review of the Porsche GT3 Touring today on YouTube and noted his enthusiastic endorsement of the perfectly round wheel, praising it as the best steering device available on the market right now, because it works perfectly for its intended task.

How ‘bout that.

 

[wooter]

Yeah, not talking about a car stopping short on the motorway or swerving in front of you or accident avoidance. I am talking about the unforeseen. And how many every day citizens are attending an advanced driver course? I'll try it simpler terms, I am not "anti yoke", but there will be issues on roads due to the yoke. 100%!

How many regular people will:

• meet something unforeseen,
• steer more than 100º in each direction
• still won't have lost control of their car?

Generally speaking, once people steer more than 100º and are untrained, they're toast. Most people even don't steer that far. Heck, one of the reasons I started doing driver training was because I put my car in the wall on a track day, and there is proof of me not steering full lock to counter the skid.

 

[wooter]

when the car is making a large turn - 90’ or more - you can be “in control” by allowing a wheel to slip through your fingers.

That's just bad practice. Slipping the wheel through your fingers = not knowing which direction the wheels are pointing at.

 

[wooter]

I work in the ergonomics industry and everything is moving towards creating comfort around the human body.

My argument is that the yoke, because of its shape, and the indicator buttons on top of it, are ergonomically better for autopilot.

 

[JimLL]

How many regular people will:

• meet something unforeseen,
• steer more than 100º in each direction
• still won't have lost control of their car?

Generally speaking, once people steer more than 100º and are untrained, they're toast. Most people even don't steer that far. Heck, one of the reasons I started doing driver training was because I put my car in the wall on a track day, and there is proof of me not steering full lock to counter the skid.

That's just bad practice. Slipping the wheel through your fingers = not knowing which direction the wheels are pointing at.

Brother you keep bringing up "trained" or "untrained" drivers and talking about "bad practice", as if most people driving have had some kind of advance driver training behind the wheel. Most people took a compulsory drivers education course when they were 16 in order to get licensed, and that's it. I understand you are a fan of the yoke, but not everyone is a "highly trained' driver or an advanced driver. I see you are in Belgium? Have you been to the US? Driven in the US? Most people I pass on the motorways these days have their phone in one hand. That is who is buying cars. Not just motoring enthusiasts, racecar drivers and instructors.

Do you know what the largest demographic is for the Model S? 54 and up. Do you know what 54 year olds have been driving for the past almost 40 years? Cars with steering wheels. I myself got turned onto the brand by my 67 year old father in law who is on his 3rd Model S. I don't want to argue with you because again, I do like the yoke, but it is not Nico Müller, Sebastian Vettel or even Jeremy Clarkson behind the wheel.

 

[n2mb_racing]

I agree the yoke is stupid, but I'm still going to buy the car, because 1020 HP.

 

[chinney]

As I wrote before, the yoke vs regular wheel should be an option, not the only choice. I personally would not buy the Model S with a yoke. If Tesla moves that way in the future for all of their cars, sales will tank. Not every idea is a great new innovation - and actually yoke steering is not an innovation at all, but something that has been around for a while and that was previously confined to special driving uses and that probably should stay in that context.

 

[bo3bdar]

As I wrote before, the yoke vs regular wheel should be an option, not the only choice. I personally would not buy the Model S with a yoke. If Tesla moves that way in the future for all of their cars, sales will tank. Not every idea is a great new innovation - and actually yoke steering is not an innovation at all, but something that has been around for a while and that was previously confined to special driving uses and that probably should stay in that context.

This right here. ^^ Why does it always have to be Elon's way or the highway? Why is it a problem to offer options for any of these sorts of things? People who want a yoke- get it. People who don't, don't.

End of controversy and no loss of sales to people like me who are never, ever going to get a car with a yoke because I value function over form. I don't care how cool it looks. Cybertruck with a yoke- yeah, that's going to really draw in the buyers, especially as it will now actually have to compete with a 'normal' truck the F-150 Lightning.

I really don't understand this hard line Tesla/Apple stance of "do it our way, or get lost."*


* before you regale me with all the tales of how Apple always proves out new tech, let's remember the butterfly keyboard, iphone '3d-touch', bendable iphones, and the touch-bar. And let's talk about MobileMe too, and then mac.com. And also that I worked there for 15 years, so I'm not exactly ignorant of their successes. Can we kindly have less selective memory, and that not every innovation is actually better?

 

[roblab]

Of COURSE you/we/us will get used to the yoke for day to day driving. The problem with your comparison is that if you wind up in an emergency situation, where instincts must take over, not having the instrument panel isn't going to matter. But grabbing for the top of the steering wheel that has existed for 100 years and literally every person on earth is used to and it is not there, will definitely matter. What if you have literally seconds or less to react?

Is the yoke cool? Absolutely. In fact, I think in some driving conditions, it may be better than a traditional wheel. But what happens if you have to react? What if you are in a spin and you grab for a wheel that isn't there and the yoke starts spinning with the car? Rhetorically, are you going to be composed and grab the right spot to compensate?

Just some food for thought!

Purely conjecture. If I were to react in an emergency situation, my hands would already be on the wheel, and RARELY does anyone have time to move them. Rarely also does the wheel need moving more than a few degrees, which a yoke can easily handle. As the person above pointed out, there was all kinds of worry about the Model 3's screen, "what will happen when I need to look down suddenly and there's no instrument cluster behind the wheel!!??? OH NO!", which didn't pan out.

Nearly everyone will be used to the yoke in a few minutes and never have a dollop of trouble with it. Instinct takes over easily when moving from a car with a big wheel, like on my S, to when I move to the three. BIG deal.

Now, if someone with a yoke were to write about all the problems he/she was having adapting, that might be interesting. But they don't.

 

[mark95476]

You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Some drivers look at cars, regardless if it has a steering wheel or yoke, and just drive it. A steering wheel or a yoke has never been an issue and they use them interchangeably.

Kevin Estre setting a Nurburgring lap record in a Porsche with a steering wheel--

Kevin Estre racing and placing 1st in the Nurburgring 24 hour race in a Porsche with a yoke--

 

[JimLL]

Purely conjecture. If I were to react in an emergency situation, my hands would already be on the wheel, and RARELY does anyone have time to move them. Rarely also does the wheel need moving more than a few degrees, which a yoke can easily handle. As the person above pointed out, there was all kinds of worry about the Model 3's screen, "what will happen when I need to look down suddenly and there's no instrument cluster behind the wheel!!??? OH NO!", which didn't pan out.

Nearly everyone will be used to the yoke in a few minutes and never have a dollop of trouble with it. Instinct takes over easily when moving from a car with a big wheel, like on my S, to when I move to the three. BIG deal.

Now, if someone with a yoke were to write about all the problems he/she was having adapting, that might be interesting. But they don't.

Conjecture? I'm sorry, but what exactly was all the words you just typed right after conjecture? Of course we certainly should dismiss all potential issues, because nobody (or more accurately you) has experienced an issue with the yoke yet. I mean it has been on the road an entire 45 days, so we have a thorough sampling.

I am noticing a trend with the people pushing back on this. You all seem to think of yourselves as master drivers, and maybe you are. The problem with conjecture is that you are thinking only about yourselves and your own perceived proficiency behind the wheel.

And the FUD over the Model 3 screen is a false equivalency, and you know it is not remotely the same thing.

 

[JimLL]

You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Some drivers look at cars, regardless if it has a steering wheel or yoke, and just drive it. A steering wheel or a yoke has never been an issue and they use them interchangeably.

Kevin Estre setting a Nurburgring lap record in a Porsche with a steering wheel--

Kevin Estre racing and placing 1st in the Nurburgring 24 hour race in a Porsche with a yoke--

So your rebuttal is an FIA world champion?

 

[wooter]

Brother you keep bringing up "trained" or "untrained" drivers and talking about "bad practice", as if most people driving have had some kind of advance driver training behind the wheel. Most people took a compulsory drivers education course when they were 16 in order to get licensed, and that's it. I understand you are a fan of the yoke, but not everyone is a "highly trained' driver or an advanced driver. I see you are in Belgium? Have you been to the US? Driven in the US? Most people I pass on the motorways these days have their phone in one hand. That is who is buying cars. Not just motoring enthusiasts, racecar drivers and instructors.

The fun thing about a yoke is that it forces you good practices.

I've been driving around in Austria the last few days. Bendy, twisty roads, hairpins, the lot. I've been consciously trying to avoid the top half of my steering wheel, to get a feeling of how bad a yoke would be. It would not be an issue: when approaching a hairpin, you push the wheel about 90º and then you can reposition your upper hand to the bottom of the steering wheel. If you then need to turn further, your lower hand can take the other side of the steering wheel, which is now on top. And there you go, you're suddenly turning 180º without having touched the top of your steering wheel. Need to steer further? Just keep your hands 9 to 3 on the upside-down steering wheel and you can continue up to 360º without any hassle. Turn back? Put your lower hand back at the top which is the bottom of the steering wheel, keep turning back and the hand at the top can be repositioned back to the right spot on the steering wheel that you are now turning to be levelled straight.

Sure, one hand on top of the steering wheel is not possible anymore. Neither is having the wheel slip through your hands. Both just examples of bad steering techniques.

Do you know what the largest demographic is for the Model S? 54 and up. Do you know what 54 year olds have been driving for the past almost 40 years? Cars with steering wheels. I myself got turned onto the brand by my 67 year old father in law who is on his 3rd Model S. I don't want to argue with you because again, I do like the yoke, but it is not Nico Müller, Sebastian Vettel or even Jeremy Clarkson behind the wheel.

Yeah, I've driven in the US. Highways are perfect for autopilot. If you need to turn more than 90º on the highway, you're doing something wrong.