Ability to edit old posts expires

[AnOutsider]

You can disrupt things quite badly. Just yesterday I saw a case where someone deleted a post and then the comments on that post (that happened not to quote it) that were following seemed very nonsensical.

That seems a bit harsh. I think my freedom is not defined by whether I can edit older posts of mine...

I agree, and speaking as a normal member, TMC was actually sort of an outlier when it came to the policy in the past. I frequent many forums, and most have limitations on edit history. After some experience reinforced why most forums are like this, TMC made the switch to 24 hour editing ability. I feel that's more than generous in most cases. Heck, as a mod, I've rarely had to edit other folks posts, let alone my own.

Additionally, it's not inhibiting any freedoms, as TMC is a private forum and the administrators are free to run it in any way they deem fair. So far, I think they've done an excellent job.

P.S. I remember when editing on FB wasn't even a "thing". I do like their current implementation though, that shows the edit history.

 

[dirkhh]

I agree, and speaking as a normal member, TMC was actually sort of an outlier when it came to the policy in the past. I frequent many forums, and most have limitations on edit history.

Sadly that's true. That doesn't make it a good thing, though.

I remember when editing on FB wasn't even a "thing". I do like their current implementation though, that shows the edit history.

Yes, the FB solution is pretty cool. I'm sure doug and his engineering team of 15000 are working on this as we speak.
Oh. Wait. ;-)

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How would you feel if you were responding to someone & then, after the fact, they edit their post so that your response looks totally foolish?

As long as I could edit my response, too... :tongue:

I don't know about you, but when I talk about 'freedom', it has a lot more to do with how I live my life that it does with posting on a private car forum where my participation is completely my choice.

THAT. Let's keep it real. Was the old (now no longer relevant) rule that even supporting members couldn't edit their posts after 24h great? Personally I didn't think so. And doug fixed that.
But elevating that to a discussion about "freedom" seems a little over the top.

 

[eco5280]

Bonnie - honestly, I've been on forums since they first existed. The drama here is Oscar worthy. It's a forum. About cars. I've been on religion boards with less hand wringing.

I love this forum - many of the people are super funny and outgoing and friendly and of course incredibly helpful. But the mods are, I don't know if it's ego or inexperience or being overwhelmed, but they act as if a post must be perfect. Removing posts and reforming them into new threads, editing people's posts all the time without permission (or even comment in the post), etc. I've been a mod of car forums. I've been a mod of political forums. I've been a member of so many forums I couldn't ever remember them if I tried. But right now Tesla is my passion so I'm on TMC quite a bit. And I'm telling you - the situation here is wackadoo. Really. It's a forum. We're people. Adult people at that. Hang back, do nothing, and I promise the world won't end. Removing freedoms is not the answer.

 

[bonnie]

Bonnie - honestly, I've been on forums since they first existed. The drama here is Oscar worthy. It's a forum. About cars. I've been on religion boards with less hand wringing.

I love this forum - many of the people are super funny and outgoing and friendly and of course incredibly helpful. But the mods are, I don't know if it's ego or inexperience or being overwhelmed, but they act as if a post must be perfect. Removing posts and reforming them into new threads, editing people's posts all the time without permission (or even comment in the post), etc. I've been a mod of car forums. I've been a mod of political forums. I've been a member of so many forums I couldn't ever remember them if I tried. But right now Tesla is my passion so I'm on TMC quite a bit. And I'm telling you - the situation here is wackadoo. Really. It's a forum. We're people. Adult people at that. Hang back, do nothing, and I promise the world won't end. Removing freedoms is not the answer.

That has nothing to do with what I posted. I specifically was saying 1) why supporting members, and 2) disagreeing with your use of 'freedom' in relation to this.

 

[dirkhh]

Bonnie - honestly, I've been on forums since they first existed. The drama here is Oscar worthy. It's a forum. About cars. I've been on religion boards with less hand wringing.

I love this forum - many of the people are super funny and outgoing and friendly and of course incredibly helpful. But the mods are, I don't know if it's ego or inexperience or being overwhelmed, but they act as if a post must be perfect. Removing posts and reforming them into new threads, editing people's posts all the time without permission (or even comment in the post), etc. I've been a mod of car forums. I've been a mod of political forums. I've been a member of so many forums I couldn't ever remember them if I tried. But right now Tesla is my passion so I'm on TMC quite a bit. And I'm telling you - the situation here is wackadoo. Really. It's a forum. We're people. Adult people at that. Hang back, do nothing, and I promise the world won't end. Removing freedoms is not the answer.

With all due respect and understanding that this is your personal perception... but I have been on a few forums myself in the past decade (most of them not about cars, admittedly) and have found that by and large the moderation here is excellent and does a fantastic job of keeping the tone civil and the topics on track. Do I think they are perfect? no. Have I voiced my frustration about them in the past (about the "in" group of early Tesla owners and the rest of the members)? Heck yes.
But I think your criticism goes way too far. The situation here is GOOD. The moderators and admin(s) listen to feedback. They don't bend over backwards whenever someone whines, but if there is consistent, constructive feedback they usually listen.

 

[eco5280]

@dirkhh - I'm relatively new around here. But lots of people have lots of examples of when what you said isn't true.

Let me give you an example. Person posts a story. People reply that it's wrong - it's not accurate, or it's a troll pretending to have Tesla troubles, or the fault is user error, or had they read the sticky or searched they wouldn't be in the dilemma, etc. A million threads like this. Except mods feel the need to intervene. Constantly. I've never experienced that before. It's one thing if people were replying "Go @#$ yourself, you dumb hick!" Or "<this color skinned person> couldn't afford a Tesla anyhow!" Or "Listen, IDIOT, read the @#$ing manual!" Or anything like that. But I'm not seeing hate, and I'm not seeing cruelty. I'm seeing PEOPLE ON A FORUM POSTING THEIR OPINION/BELIEF/KNOWLEDGE/ADVICE or whatever, and mods intervene. Okay, I'm wrong about everything. The mods are perfect. Why are so many complaining then?

 

[dirkhh]

@dirkhh - I'm relatively new around here. But lots of people have lots of examples of when what you said isn't true.

Let me give you an example. Person posts a story. People reply that it's wrong - it's not accurate, or it's a troll pretending to have Tesla troubles, or the fault is user error, or had they read the sticky or searched they wouldn't be in the dilemma, etc. A million threads like this. Except mods feel the need to intervene. Constantly.

I would love to see actual examples of what you describe here. I have seen people question the authenticity of some posts were the poster was brand new and made rather unlikely statements, but I have not seen people attack posters who run into problems. In general the tone here tends to be extremely supportive. Are you confusing TMC and the Tesla Motors Forums by any chance?

Oh, and "A million threads like this."? That seems like a mild exaggeration to me

 

[FlasherZ]

Ok, this morning I received word from Doug that this module had been installed, and I was asked if it would be suitable for my concerns. After looking at it, indeed it does appear to be suitable for the types of moderated information threads that we are talking about in this post. He returned the wiring FAQ back to its original location and removed the wiki editability, and it is back under my control now.

 

[dirkhh]

Ok, this morning I received word from Doug that this module had been installed, and I was asked if it would be suitable for my concerns. After looking at it, indeed it does appear to be suitable for the types of moderated information threads that we are talking about in this post. He returned the wiring FAQ back to its original location and removed the wiki editability, and it is back under my control now.

YAY. I'm glad this is worked out and you are back editing the FAQ.

 

[Auzie]

Happy for you FlasherZ. Lets bombard Doug with some well deserved reputation points. :biggrin:

 

[bonnie]

@dirkhh - I'm relatively new around here. But lots of people have lots of examples of when what you said isn't true.

Let me give you an example. Person posts a story. People reply that it's wrong - it's not accurate, or it's a troll pretending to have Tesla troubles, or the fault is user error, or had they read the sticky or searched they wouldn't be in the dilemma, etc. A million threads like this. Except mods feel the need to intervene. Constantly. I've never experienced that before. It's one thing if people were replying "Go @#$ yourself, you dumb hick!" Or "<this color skinned person> couldn't afford a Tesla anyhow!" Or "Listen, IDIOT, read the @#$ing manual!" Or anything like that. But I'm not seeing hate, and I'm not seeing cruelty. I'm seeing PEOPLE ON A FORUM POSTING THEIR OPINION/BELIEF/KNOWLEDGE/ADVICE or whatever, and mods intervene. Okay, I'm wrong about everything. The mods are perfect. Why are so many complaining then?

So wait. You're complaining that mods intervene and ask that someone who posts a negative story not be attacked? (Because other people are complaining that mods don't intervene in those cases.)

One of the expectations on this forum is civility, including respect towards other forum members. And yes, that's different than a lot of other forums. Thank god we don't all have to be the same.

 

[spaceballs]

Ok, this morning I received word from Doug that this module had been installed, and I was asked if it would be suitable for my concerns. After looking at it, indeed it does appear to be suitable for the types of moderated information threads that we are talking about in this post. He returned the wiring FAQ back to its original location and removed the wiki editability, and it is back under my control now.

Good to hear he found an addon that works for informational threads. To bad he couldn't find one where one where he could just undo any mass edits of old older threads that violate the TOS, as I much rather have the previous freedom to edit my old posts than current one of only editing them in x minutes.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Good to see that a solution to the issue at hand seems to have been found. Kudos.

FWIW, I don't find eco5280's PoV unreasonable, even if some of his examples/wordings may be a bit harsh. It is certainly debatable if moderation/limits are needed quite as much, one approach would be to only moderate clear excesses. There can be a bit overbearing attitude on this forum at times, especially given the rather strong insider/seniority mentality, and I do hope that is one area where to culture develops to a more "free" atmosphere, instead of the other way around.

In a way moderation and limits, really, should IMO be a rare exception, rather than a constant presence. Something I hope the administration keeps in mind as they develop things.

Just my two cents. Thank you. Now, back to cars...

 

[eco5280]

I'll take it down several notches. I have toddlers screaming at me all day so I may be leaning towards a bit of hyperbole, but it's easy for a mod to sit in a position of power and tell us what is or isn't frustrating with respect to editing our posts.

 

[AnOutsider]

than current one of only editing them in x minutes.

1,440 minutes I believe.

For what it's worth, the mods and admins are always willing to edit a post that needs editing when outside the time limit. Simply report the post and someone will get on it. Since the change was made, I believe less than a handful have reached out to request this (though, it's always possible they didn't know they could).

 

[brianman]

So wait. You're complaining that mods intervene and ask that someone who posts a negative story not be attacked? (Because other people are complaining that mods don't intervene in those cases.)

In case it helps... I interpreted eco differently than you did here. I read it as "someone posts something wrong or crazy and the community self-policies, with criticism and corrections of the content not attacks on the author". The argument being, if the mods waited a bit longer (say an average of 20 posts more than they wait now) that the drama would naturally subside on its own.

I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with the theory just yet, but that was my interpretation.

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Regarding the thread title topic generally...

I must admit I notice the "Last edited by" line on posts in this thread a lot lately.

 

[eco5280]

That was pretty much my meaning. That people actually AREN'T attacking the OP, mods are too sensitive. Honestly, want to spend hours getting irked at mods? Go read the posts that they surreptitiously moved to the snippiness thread. Go look at the last two pages and tell me that most of those posts needed to be removed from their original threads. A moderator posted that things are moved there that are deemed to be "otherwise degrading other topics" My point is that they are socially engineering the forum. They decide what's relavent, or important, or worthy. Not the userbase. I say this without anger, but with ample evidence. Go spend a half hour skimming that thread. You tell me how often it was warranted.

 

[bonnie]

That was pretty much my meaning. That people actually AREN'T attacking the OP, mods are too sensitive. Honestly, want to spend hours getting irked at mods? Go read the posts that they surreptitiously moved to the snippiness thread. Go look at the last two pages and tell me that most of those posts needed to be removed from their original threads. A moderator posted that things are moved there that are deemed to be "otherwise degrading other topics" My point is that they are socially engineering the forum. They decide what's relavent, or important, or worthy. Not the userbase. I say this without anger, but with ample evidence. Go spend a half hour skimming that thread. You tell me how often it was warranted.

And there are also threads thanking moderators just in general & also thanks of appreciation by many members when clean up has happened. Pointing out that some people don't like it is really spinning the data.

 

[Canuck]

That was pretty much my meaning. That people actually AREN'T attacking the OP, mods are too sensitive. Honestly, want to spend hours getting irked at mods? Go read the posts that they surreptitiously moved to the snippiness thread. Go look at the last two pages and tell me that most of those posts needed to be removed from their original threads. A moderator posted that things are moved there that are deemed to be "otherwise degrading other topics" My point is that they are socially engineering the forum. They decide what's relavent, or important, or worthy. Not the userbase. I say this without anger, but with ample evidence. Go spend a half hour skimming that thread. You tell me how often it was warranted.

I understand your point but perhaps those threads would have got worse, rather than have been taken care of by other members. Moving them to snippiness takes care of the problem without concern as to which way the thread will go, and we can't expect the mods to be watching every post to see the direction the thread is taking. Plus, perhaps people will think a bit more about their tone and content before posting so they don't end up in the snippy thread. I know I do -- but I still sometimes end up there anyways. Ha!

 

[markwj]

That was pretty much my meaning. That people actually AREN'T attacking the OP, mods are too sensitive. Honestly, want to spend hours getting irked at mods? Go read the posts that they surreptitiously moved to the snippiness thread. Go look at the last two pages and tell me that most of those posts needed to be removed from their original threads. A moderator posted that things are moved there that are deemed to be "otherwise degrading other topics" My point is that they are socially engineering the forum. They decide what's relavent, or important, or worthy. Not the userbase. I say this without anger, but with ample evidence. Go spend a half hour skimming that thread. You tell me how often it was warranted.

I've really been trying to stay away from this (particularly given my role as a moderator in some sections of this site), but the allegations are getting ridiculous. It really is no wonder that two senior long-term moderators recently stepped back from those roles.

Please, let's remember that the mods here are all unpaid volunteers. They have no hidden agenda, and absolutely no intent to socially engineer the content of this forum. All they are doing is trying to keep this a fun place to visit. Are they perfect? Obviously, no. Are they doing the best they can for a (mostly) thankless job? Yes, imho.

At the time you wrote this, the last two pages of the captioned snippiness thread were mostly related to posts moved there from a thread where a relatively new member of the forum posted about his recent accident. A few other members started personal attacks on him and his driving capabilities. Some members (not mods, but members) thought it bad enough that they reported the activity. After waiting a while to see if it would die down with just a few posts, it didn't, so a mod stepped in, did his best to move the malicious stuff out to snippiness and then left a note in the source thread to record the move. There was nothing surreptitious about it. What was done was in keeping with the terms of service for this forum, and completely fair and impartial. The attacks were moved, not meaningful content useful to the discussion of the thread. Nothing was deleted.

Sure, sometimes 'innocent' posts get caught up in this. One of my own posts is even in that snippiness thread because I (humorously) answered a personal attack with a quote of the attack itself. Moving the attack to snippiness meant bringing along my 'innocent' response (otherwise the quote would be out of context) - which is precisely what this entire thread is all about. There, back on topic :biggrin:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when looking at one post moved to snippiness, or wherever, you don't necessarily see the bigger picture. Just look at that one picture of John Travolta at the Oscars, followed by the next day's sequence of clarification pictures to show context. Sometimes, you don't see the context, you don't see the previous activity of the poster. The mods do.

Please, let's try to give them the benefit of the doubt.