After 5-weeks, I turned FSD Beta off!

After years of waiting I finally got my FSD Beta! After 6-weeks I turned it off.

I found the promise of the FSD Beta to be overblown. Yes it is very cool that the car will navigate on city streets to a destination. But the car is far too timid to be usable. It is worse than driving with a student driver. Also, the car’s hesitation causes a lot of problems with other drivers who get confused when they see the car stop or slow, when it should not. But that is not what made me turn it off.

I turned it off because it made the overall driving experience annoying, and more dangerous.

With the beta turned-on, the car makes speed changes at nearly every speed limit sign, even when only running TACC. Not only is this annoying but these changers often alarm my passengers and sometimes surprise the cars behind. The car does not do this when the FSD is disabled.

And then there is a notice at nearly every traffic light that one is coming, even when running only on TACC. I find I am spending time clearing nuisance alerts instead focusing 100% of my time on driving the car. And the sudden speed changes, if you miss one of the alerts, is just another version of the phantom breaking problem with the same set of issues for the cars behind. Note that I have this feature disabled under AP. This does not occur if FSD is disabled.

Next we have speed based lane changes. I disabled this under AP and the FSD stack just ignores this as well, and there is no way to tell it not to do so.

So overall, the benefit of having FSD is very minimal, while the negative impact to quality and enjoyment of driving is very real. I definably will not be buying FSD on a future car, unless these problems are fixed.

"Tesla Autopilot Engaged in Model X" by Ian Maddox is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[Huskyf]

I agree with the OP. I am about to turn mine off too. The instrument panel is just way too busy. Even if I turn off FSD visualization it still shows all the cars, etc. I guess it is bugged.

The whole point of an auto pilot is to relax. The exact opposite is happening when using FSD (other than on highways). You really have to watch out. The basic auto pilot is awesome on highways and I use it all the time. Changing lanes is nice to have but it is only doing an OK job when there is traffic. I would not even pay for that not to mention FSD. 15k? LOL...

Wait to version 11

 

[BrendonHolt]

At this point, Elon Musk has realized what Mobileye already knows, risking end users entire safety on Visual only is risky, for multiple reasons. Depending on any one system for your entire safety has a long way to go. You need Radar and Video to drive safely.

So Tesla will put back in HD Radar and invest in this technology and it will continue to grow, in conjunction with Video, not one or the other.

Anyone who buys a Tesla without the Radar risks not having the ability to do the Promise of FSD due to Hardware Limitations.

Be interesting if they go back and install it for free on these limited models. Like the "Unicorn" models that exist in rarity the ones without Radar might be more prevalent but in the same category.

I for one passed on the purchase of a new Tesla Model X until the companies direction is more clear, and if the CEO cannot clearly state his direction, obviously an end user like myself cannot. I am actually purchasing an old one, expecting in a few years to replace it ONCE Tesla improves on this technology.

 

[Supcom]

But you cannot flag problem. There is no “Report” button for the masses.

You don't need to hit a report button. The car knows when you disengage and knows whether you used the steering wheel, brake or stalk to do so. The car knows when you have it do something other than what it wanted to do. The car can assess what you do vs what it would do even when FSDb is not engaged. If data sharing is turned on, Tesla should be able to do this even with non-FSD cars.

I believe that Tesla can configure your car to self-generate reports based on these conditions as well as many others. For example, if Tesla needs data on multi-lane roundabouts, they can likely task cars to generate data anytime they enter one.

With 400,000 FSDb cars on the road, who at Tesla would be trying to understand tens (hundreds?) of thousands of button pushes per day?

 

[johnnycnote]

You don't need to hit a report button. The car knows when you disengage and knows whether you used the steering wheel, brake or stalk to do so. The car knows when you have it do something other than what it wanted to do. The car can assess what you do vs what it would do even when FSDb is not engaged. If data sharing is turned on, Tesla should be able to do this even with non-FSD cars.

I believe that Tesla can configure your car to self-generate reports based on these conditions as well as many others. For example, if Tesla needs data on multi-lane roundabouts, they can likely task cars to generate data anytime they enter one.

With 400,000 FSDb cars on the road, who at Tesla would be trying to understand tens (hundreds?) of thousands of button pushes per day?

I agree. I would be surprised if the reporting process is not fully automated. It would be nice to be able to generate your own reports to see vehicle statistics

 

[ATPMSD]

You don't need to hit a report button. The car knows when you disengage and knows whether you used the steering wheel, brake or stalk to do so. The car knows when you have it do something other than what it wanted to do. The car can assess what you do vs what it would do even when FSDb is not engaged. If data sharing is turned on, Tesla should be able to do this even with non-FSD cars.

I believe that Tesla can configure your car to self-generate reports based on these conditions as well as many others. For example, if Tesla needs data on multi-lane roundabouts, they can likely task cars to generate data anytime they enter one.

With 400,000 FSDb cars on the road, who at Tesla would be trying to understand tens (hundreds?) of thousands of button pushes per day?

Given all of the shortcoming of FSDb, they sure need a better system. In any case, assuming your statements are correct, the issues I noted would not be picked up.

 

[BrendonHolt]

Given all of the shortcoming of FSDb, they sure need a better system. In any case, assuming your statements are correct, the issues I noted would not be picked up.

Agree, Tesla is aware of this and collecting a lot of data, but in the end to succeed it will take a lot of inertia and use of all the available data combined with multiple sensor points.

I can see a time where Automobile drives better then human, especially the way some humans drive, but to be fair, the Human Mind has much faster processors and memory then machines, it truly is a marvel of the world, this brain of ours.

 

[Supcom]

Given all of the shortcoming of FSDb, they sure need a better system. In any case, assuming your statements are correct, the issues I noted would not be picked up.

The issues you detailed in the original post looked like design features that you do not agree with, like not being able to disable lane changes under FSDb or TACC providing traffic light notices. Given that these are design choices that Tesla made, your intent in hitting a report button every time the car comes to a traffic light or changes speed in accordance with a speed limit sign, would be, at best, confusing to a human reviewing your reports. It does not appear that these are driving errors, which is what the report button was intended to flag.

However, as I stated earlier, given that there are 400,000 cars with FSDb, there is no possibility that Tesla will lease an office building, hire, and train staff to review the many thousands of reports per day that nearly half a million users would generate. Far better for Tesla to pull the data that they need based on the criteria that they set. Even then, the reports are almost certainly not reviewed by humans. These should go to databases where they can be mined and analyzed to identify common issues with driving performance.

 

[johnnycnote]

Agree, Tesla is aware of this and collecting a lot of data, but in the end to succeed it will take a lot of inertia and use of all the available data combined with multiple sensor points.

I can see a time where Automobile drives better then human, especially the way some humans drive, but to be fair, the Human Mind has much faster processors and memory then machines, it truly is a marvel of the world, this brain of ours.

Yeah, but most humans drive like idiots. Including me. Just ask my wife

 

[ATPMSD]

The issues you detailed in the original post looked like design features that you do not agree

To be clear these “design changes” were changes made to TACC and AP which, as you will recall, are only an issue if FSDb is enabled. My issue is that these are menu items that can deselected, but when FSDb is enabled these setting are ignored. This is not a design issue, this is a regression testing failure.

your intent in hitting a report button every time

Never said that, just that Tesla does not offer a way for the vast majority of people to report issues. For example, there is a location when FSDb does not track lanes correctly, it would be nice to “report” that.

 

[BitJam]

I can see a time where Automobile drives better then human, especially the way some humans drive, but to be fair, the Human Mind has much faster processors and memory then machines, it truly is a marvel of the world, this brain of ours.

This is true but it's also true that our reaction time to unexpected stimuli is hundreds of milliseconds and can be over a second. The puny processors in our cars can do much better than this.

Drivers ’reaction time research in the conditions in the real traffic

The article presents the results of research on the total reaction time of drivers in real traffic conditions. The tested driver had to react to a complex signal by performing a braking manoeuvre. The measurements were based on the author’s method combining the measurements of reaction time...

www.degruyter.com

Part of the reason for our long reaction time is discussed in Tor Norretranders's book the User Illusion.

 

[johnnycnote]

This is true but it's also true that our reaction time to unexpected stimuli is hundreds of milliseconds and can be over a second. The puny processors in our cars can do much better than this.

Drivers ’reaction time research in the conditions in the real traffic

The article presents the results of research on the total reaction time of drivers in real traffic conditions. The tested driver had to react to a complex signal by performing a braking manoeuvre. The measurements were based on the author’s method combining the measurements of reaction time...

www.degruyter.com

Part of the reason for our long reaction time is discussed in Tor Norretranders's book the User Illusion.

Our reaction time is only available when we are paying attention

As an example, with FSDb engaged a couple months ago, the vehicle a few car lengths in front was slowly drifting into my lane while gradually reducing speed. I let the scene play out while ready to take over to see how my M3 would handle it. My car did not take evasive action until almost the last second, but it responded quickly by moving into the left lane while slowing down and staying behind and to the left of the other vehicle. I might have reacted a few seconds sooner, but only if I was paying attention. Without FSD engaged, any distraction on my part over those few seconds would have resulted in an accident

 

[nsartor]

LIDAR?

Think they mean RADAR

 

[BrendonHolt]

The poster meant LIDAR. There are many ways to determine distance. As processing power increases and engineering (Development) grows it is my humble opinion that all will be needed for safety, but LIDAR is very processor intencive, think RADAR X 10. Car manufactures, including Tesla, have depended on Two of the Three to resolve technical limitations.

Camera has a limitation on Weather, Radar has a limitation in that it really has no clue what it is letting you know is there, just that it is something there. Light detection and Range provides data points back so it has the ability to 3D Model, but that is a lot of data.

To my knowledge only Mercedes Benz and Honda are currently using LiDAR, but I believe Porsche and it's subsidiary Volkswagon who are investing in the Inrix system of real time traffic and road conditions data that collects data are also looking at implementing LiDAR. BMW (BMW, MINI, Rolls-Royce) and Toyota also making leaps and bounds and looking at LiDAR, Ultrasonic and Camera solutions for L4 and L5 Automation for Driving.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk and it's bean counters have made a big mistake, believing they can only count on one technology. Tesla has up until now had an advantage as it collects it's own real time data and used Radar, Camera's and to some degree Ultrasonic Sensors providing an excellent combination, but Musk is betting on Visual Only, but that is going to change.

They do have a patent out for some new HD Radar in their automobiles.
That is why anyone buying a Tesla today may have the same looking car, but it will be limited by the hardware unless TESLA upgrades it for free or at a cost to their end users. In the end my next post will give you a link to really great podcast, here is an article on the available general tech.

Camera, Radar and LiDAR: A Comparison of the Three Types of Sensors and Their Limitations - AUTOCRYPT %

We will focus on the technologies behind ADAS and take a deep dive into the three types of commonly used sensors: camera, radar, and LiDAR.

autocrypt.io

 

[BrendonHolt]

Here is a great BMW presentation of the technology of Automobile Sensors. THE GREAT NEWS, TESLA had the lead, but truly for the Consumer, most excellent alternatives are on their way, which in the end means we all will be able to afford this technology.

 

[BrendonHolt]

In the end all will get to L4 and L5 levels of Automated Driving. Technology will get better and better and prices once R&D is recouped will go way down, or stay the same for better and better solutions.

This is the way of Tech.

The 6 Levels of Vehicle Autonomy Explained | Synopsys Automotive

Before merging onto roadways, self-driving cars will have to progress through 6 levels of driver assistance technology advancements. SAE defines 6 levels of driving automation ranging from 0 (fully manual) to 5 (fully autonomous). Learn more.

www.synopsys.com

 

[Huncowboy]

By the way, since they took out the sensors (I mean disabled them), I get several warnings on a typical 40 min commute. The stop and go is the worst. I pull up behind a car at a red light.... slooooowly... and keeps beeping. Lovely!

 

[BrendonHolt]

By the way, since they took out the sensors (I mean disabled them), I get several warnings on a typical 40 min commute. The stop and go is the worst. I pull up behind a car at a red light.... slooooowly... and keeps beeping. Lovely!

Special place in He11 for programmers that remove features without a way to roll back the updates. Tesla really needs to backup the Software and Firmware before updates so an end user can return their vehicle back to it's prior version until bugs are fixed then update.

 

[Catbiscuits]

The bug report button is already a placebo. I had to speak to Tesla about a couple of things, one of which was the car throwing me out of FSD with a strike even though my hands were on the wheel and there was no warning. When I did he asked the precise time it happened. I said well I filed a big report immediately although, I added, it seems to have gotten harder to do, the car tried to play a bug report playlist on Apple Music twice. Oh, he said, we don’t pay any attention to bug reports and are disabling them. We just get too many. Good job.

 

[johnnycnote]

The bug report button is already a placebo. I had to speak to Tesla about a couple of things, one of which was the car throwing me out of FSD with a strike even though my hands were on the wheel and there was no warning. When I did he asked the precise time it happened. I said well I filed a big report immediately although, I added, it seems to have gotten harder to do, the car tried to play a bug report playlist on Apple Music twice. Oh, he said, we don’t pay any attention to bug reports and are disabling them. We just get too many. Good job.

That is one cool looking Jersey cat!

 

[helpme]

After years of waiting I finally got my FSD Beta! After 6-weeks I turned it off.

I found the promise of the FSD Beta to be overblown. Yes it is very cool that the car will navigate on city streets to a destination. But the car is far too timid to be usable. It is worse than driving with a student driver. Also, the car’s hesitation causes a lot of problems with other drivers who get confused when they see the car stop or slow, when it should not. But that is not what made me turn it off.

I turned it off because it made the overall driving experience annoying, and more dangerous.

With the beta turned-on, the car makes speed changes at nearly every speed limit sign, even when only running TACC. Not only is this annoying but these changers often alarm my passengers and sometimes surprise the cars behind. The car does not do this when the FSD is disabled.

And then there is a notice at nearly every traffic light that one is coming, even when running only on TACC. I find I am spending time clearing nuisance alerts instead focusing 100% of my time on driving the car. And the sudden speed changes, if you miss one of the alerts, is just another version of the phantom breaking problem with the same set of issues for the cars behind. Note that I have this feature disabled under AP. This does not occur if FSD is disabled.

Next we have speed based lane changes. I disabled this under AP and the FSD stack just ignores this as well, and there is no way to tell it not to do so.

So overall, the benefit of having FSD is very minimal, while the negative impact to quality and enjoyment of driving is very real. I definably will not be buying FSD on a future car, unless these problems are fixed.

View attachment 904010
"Tesla Autopilot Engaged in Model X" by Ian Maddox is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

As someone looking to purchase a Tesla it seems that fsd is not worth it. Which car would you recommend I look for - one that has enhanced auto pilot or just ap 1 is good enough ?